2 Stud Hands (It's my homegame and I'll LAG if I want to)

[snoogins47]

So, two really interesting Stud hands took place in my homegame last night, and I think they illustrate some interesting concepts, and should spark some very interesting discussion.

I know we don't have a bunch of stud specialists here, but I know a lot of players here dabble in it, and I hope they wander onto this post.

Firstly, High-Low. We were playing Stud 8, and I don't recall the precise action and boards up to this point, but on the river, here's what the boards looked like. Names changed to protect the innocent. Boards are approximations, but close enough.

Biff: [x x x] Kd Kh Ts 7h
Me: [4d 7c Qh] As Qc 2d Js
Blamf: [x x x] 4h 9c 8c 3h

The pot is pretty good sized, probably 14BBs or so before the river action.

Biff checks. He might have made some Kings-Up type hand, but he's been playing passively. He would've played aggressively with trips, and I'm almost certain he'd bet two pair on the end. Still, I can't beat his board... however, I'm pretty sure his board is all he's got. I have a pretty strong feeling Blamf, to my left, has a low, and his board is very tame as far as high hands are concerned. Stuck in the middle of two players, and I can't beat either of them.

I check, expecting Blamf to bet and Biff to call, at which point I plan on raising.



The second hand was Stud high, and it garnered some weird looks from the table, which is a common theme for me.

A tricky player who seems to respect my playing (for that matter, knows I'm capable of doing weird shit), and loves to get into psychological warfare with me, raises two-off the bring-in with a 5h door card. He's a very bright guy, and seems to have more natural poker potential than anybody I regularly play with. And though it sounds odd coming from a young'n like me, he is lacking in the experience department. He tends to fall on the aggressive side of the fence. Again, boards are approximate.

Trickdaddy: [x x] 5h
Myself: [Ts 4c] Js
Bring-In [x x] 2d

So, tricky raises, I 3-bet, the bring-in cooperates and folds. TrickyMcGee thinks for a quick second, and caps. I call, and we see fourth.

4th Street: 9SB
Tricky: [x x] 5h Qd
Myself: [Ts 4c] Js 8s

Tricky leads into me, I call.

5th Street: 5.5BB
Tricky: [x x] 5h Qd 2c
Myself: [Ts 4c] Js 8s Td

Tricky bets, I call

6th Street: 7.5BB
Tricky [x x] 5h Qd 2c 4s
Myself: [Ts 4c] Js 8s Td 7h

Tricky bets, I call.

7th Street: 9.5BB
Tricky [x x x] 5h Qd 2c 4s
Myself: [Ts 4c Qh] Js 8s Td 7h

Tricky checks, I check behind.


Results, and general Snoog-i-fied reasoning to follow.

[tame_deuces]

I suck at stud, but heck, maybe I'll learn something if I reply.

I figure in the first hand you are hoping to be re-raised by the lo, and that the kings will fold if that is all he has, since they are caught in between the two other players?

I don't quite get the 2nd hand. I figure if he is on a draw, it is busted, and your tens might be valid. And if he has a high wired, you got some outs to beat him.

[Hurricane Ham]

Never much of a hi/lo player, but I do enjoy stud immensely and play it quasi-frequently.

The first hand, seems as if deuces hit it on the head, checkraise to make the open kings fold if that's all he's got, and hope for a split with the low hand. Easy for you to have two big pair, or even just a pair of aces, with the board you have showing, so kings would lay down if it was just kings. Couldn't beat either of them, so it's the only way you're gonna win some money on that hand.

Not sure about the second hand. Checking the river, he obviously put you on a straight draw since you had four showing, and wanted a cheap showdown just to see if you had it. He bets out, you raise him, he's gotta believe he's up against a straight. If he falls on the aggressive side of the fence, he very well may have had split fives and bet it down thinking it was best knowing your propensity towards trickery, or a decent pair in the hole. Capping third suggests a big pair. Wondering why you never raised on any street to see where you were in the hand? Obviously you didn't have a terribly strong hand, but to really test the strenth of his hand a raise on fifth may not have been a bad idea.

Just curious why you'd 3-bet a not so great hand on third, call the cap, then just call it down, especially after he checks to you, presumably fearing a hand you could easily represent.

Needless to say, I'm waiting with bated breath to hear your reasoning behind the second hand, because I seem to be missing something.

[Iron Butt]

#1: I'm betting out rather than trying for the checkraise there. Both because you might take it all with a show of strength having possible monster low and high hands showing, but mainly because the one thing you can't do there is show cards, and if player 3 didn't make his low he's not betting, the cards go up and you're screwed. Would be nice to know something about the betting there. For instance, if #3 didn't raise 6th street in proper I-have-the-low-hand-and-want-to-get-paid fashion, his hand is definitely in question.

#2: LOL... I dunno, looks like a dick measuring contest to me, who's was longer? Personally I think I'm out after the first raise there. But if I had to, I bet there. I'm not looking to show tens and it's the only move you're making with the straight, let him chew on all those calls and see if he feels lucky.

[howzit]

Biff: [x x x] Kd Kh Ts 7h
Me: [4d 7c Qh] As Qc 2d Js
Blamf: [x x x] 4h 9c 8c 3h

The pot is pretty good sized, probably 14BBs or so before the river action.

I check, expecting Blamf to bet and Biff to call, at which point I plan on raising.

Even if you can get the low to three-bet after you check-raise, this move is thin. Also, fold this on fourth.

Trickdaddy: [x x] 5h
Myself: [Ts 4c] Js
Bring-In [x x] 2d

So, tricky raises, I 3-bet, the bring-in cooperates and folds. TrickyMcGee thinks for a quick second, and caps. I call, and we see fourth.

4th Street: 9SB
Tricky: [x x] 5h Qd
Myself: [Ts 4c] Js 8s

Tricky leads into me, I call.

5th Street: 5.5BB
Tricky: [x x] 5h Qd 2c
Myself: [Ts 4c] Js 8s Td

Tricky bets, I call

6th Street: 7.5BB
Tricky [x x] 5h Qd 2c 4s
Myself: [Ts 4c] Js 8s Td 7h

Tricky bets, I call.

7th Street: 9.5BB
Tricky [x x x] 5h Qd 2c 4s
Myself: [Ts 4c Qh] Js 8s Td 7h

Tricky checks, I check behind.


Results, and general Snoog-i-fied reasoning to follow.

I would raise fourth and sixth.

[greathuskie]

considering i dont know much about stud...in the first hand, with that many BB's in the pot and you reraising one more BB to the last persons bet, are you not giving everyone in the hand the correct pot odds to make the call?

[snoogins47]

I'll preface all of this with saying this is how drunk-Jake plays .25/.50 with friends. All interesting plays get an EV bonus in my head, because I like to have hands to talk about/post on my blog. The most interesting point this post illustrates is that I need to stop posting while drunk. These boards absolutely cannot be right. I probably didn't catch a Q on fourth in the stud8 hand, and I did NOT have four to a gutshot showing on 6th in the stud high hand. So, I guess I'll discuss the hands as my tipsy-ass presented them to you.

"Even if you can get the low to three-bet after you check-raise, this move is thin. Also, fold this on fourth. "

Going past fourth sucks usually. Either I didn't catch the queen, or the pot was laying me a lot to a little, and I was closing the action. Either way wouldn't shock me.

I agree that this is fairly thin, but in general, I think KK is overcalling the check-raise less than 60-70% of the time, which should be enough, especially with the tiny, tiny chance that both of them folded, which happens occasionally (when the rough low board busted and was desperation bluffing on the end, which he may do)

Not to mention, the player to my right isn't going to fold to river raises from me anymore.



As for the straight high hand:

"#2: LOL... I dunno, looks like a dick measuring contest to me, who's was longer?"

Bingo. Mine.

The thought process went roughly like this. 3rd: That's such an obvious steal. I re-raise. He caps. "Well, he's got a pair or some straight flush cards. He wouldn't cap trips" 4th: I peel a card off, with the intention of possibly trying to steal on the bigger streets. 5th: Oh I paired up, what do I do? Hmm. Is calling down profitable? Sure, I'm not a 2 to 1 dog against his range.

If the boards are correct, I agree completely about raising 6th. He's folding a better hand rarely, but he's 3-betting very rarely too, so I get to showdown for the same amount of bets most of the time, unless I improve. The reason I kept calling down in the real hand, as I recall, was that my board was so ragged that I feared 3bets from a LOT of hands that had me beat. Apparently 4 to a straight is the best my drunk self could do when coming up with a "ragged board."

I apologize to the board for this nonsense.