3-way pot, absolute nuts, side pot

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

This is a problem from another forum, but I thought I would post it here. It's drawn from a $2/$5 live game.

Hero in question has the SB and a $1250 stack. The BB has him covered, and an MP player has about $500.

Hero has [Ks Js]. There is a $10 straddle, everyone calls, hero calls, BB calls, straddle checks. Hero checks in the dark.

Flop [Kc Ts 9s]

The flop gets checked around all the way. Hero bets $25 in the dark (yes, it's awful, but let's not focus on that).

Turn [Qs]

The BB min-raises to $50, and the MP player shoves for about $450 more. It's now up to hero to call or raise.

Now, my argument was that the hero in question should just call, and hope to induce action from the BB. Several people said this was dumb, and that calling actually looks too strong, and raising makes it look like Hero wants BB to fold and therefore might get a call from a weaker hand than normal. I think this is stupid, and vastly over-complicates the situation and gives far too much credit to a $2/$5 donk.

My rationale here is that calling and raising BOTH look pretty strong on a coordinated board like this, so raising versus calling is fairly similar. I also believe that there is not one hand in villain's range where he would call a shove, but wouldn't call (or raise) if hero flat calls, but there is a chance (however small) that the BB might call or raise with a few additional hands if hero calls instead of raises. To me, this is analogous to a situation, say, in Stud where we start with rolled Aces and makes quads on 4th street. There, we have to check, even though it seems so transparent and so bad, but we HAVE to give the other player a chance to get something and make a blunder on a later street.

If we call here, and villain calls, he is probably calling any river here.

Do you guys agree that we should just call, no matter how "obvious" it looks, or do you think that we should raise?

[miaowmiaowchowface]

before the rest... how can he check in the dark and bet in the dark? or did i misunderstand something..

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

He was first to act and it's a live game...

[gumbie]

wtf is up with the BB minraise?

Shove now, the river is more likely to kill your action than increase it.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

umm i prefer a call here, I think his range for calling a shove is {flushes} and if he has a shove he will either shove over you, or slowplay it, and pay you off on most rivers anyway, except when he has low flushes (which he'll most likely shove).

If you call he may overcall As if he's retarded enough. He may overcall JxXs or something, and sets, which will pay u off if he boats up on the river.

I def like a call here.

[golddog]

It's a live game? Call, and flinch a little bit.

Seriously, I like your rationale, Diamond. You correctly point out that both look pretty strong, so they're approximately equal.

So close that it seems like giving them every excuse to call (i.e., not charging much) is going to end up with more action.

But I don't know, I don't play NL cash much, and not very well when I do.

[Felting]

tank for a bit, call, donk shove river if he doesn't push on the turn. The only hand we can really can hope calls us on the river is the Ace high flush. He may, however, take are tanking as us having a set/two pair and if he has a smaller flush may try to push us out with a shove to protect against us filling up.

[buckeyes77]

I'd call here - in a $2/5 live game there are enough donks that will call $450 behind on a board like this. Looks like hero's only raise option is a shove which could very likely result in no further action. And I wouldn't give too much credit to villains thinking your call looks stronger than a shove - in fact I'd probably dismiss that perspective entirely. On a board like this, there are just too many players that go into "playing my own cards only" mode. I think slow play is the way to go here.

[gumbie]

DONT GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO COLD CALL WITH HIS STR8/BABY FLUSH/SET/2PAIR AND FOLD TO A SPADE ON THE RIVER.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

ithink u shove here and he folds most of those hands

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

ithink u shove here and he folds most of those hands

That's partly my thinking (except probably the flush). If a spade comes, at least we get some value here, and we get more from the bare [As], or from a set/two pair that makes a boat on the end. And if a blank comes, we might pull two streets of value from a guy who falls prey to the "f*ck this guy" factor.

[gumbie]

ithink u shove here and he folds most of those hands

turn minraising donk folding here?

oo la la