7 card stud players...critique this hand please

[greathuskie]

------HAND 5------
Game #554410734: 7 Card Stud Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/06/22 - 15:00:18 (ET)
Table "Aiken"
Seat 1: tsiguy ($42.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Piler8 ($9.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Jere29012 ($18.25 in chips)
Seat 5: DrTukolu ($12 in chips)
Seat 6: Sniffer ($29 in chips)
Seat 8: Goodshot ($31.25 in chips)
Goodshot: posts the ante $0.25
tsiguy: posts the ante $0.25
Sniffer: posts the ante $0.25
Jere29012: posts the ante $0.25
DrTukolu: posts the ante $0.25
Piler8: posts the ante $0.25
----- 3rd STREET -----
dealt to tsiguy [2d 3d 6d]
dealt to Piler8 [Th]
dealt to Jere29012 [Ks]
dealt to DrTukolu [5s]
dealt to Sniffer [3c]
dealt to Goodshot [7d]
Sniffer: brings-in $0.50
Goodshot: calls $0.50
tsiguy: raises $1
Piler8: folds
Jere29012: raises $2
Piler8 leaves the table
DrTukolu: calls $2
Sniffer: folds
Goodshot: calls $1.50
tsiguy: calls $1
----- 4th STREET -----
dealt to tsiguy [2d 3d 6d][5d]
dealt to Jere29012 [Ks][Qd]
dealt to DrTukolu [5s][5h]
dealt to Goodshot [7d][8h]
DrTukolu: bets $2
Goodshot: calls $2
tsiguy: raises $4
Jere29012: calls $4
DrTukolu: raises $4
Goodshot: calls $4
tsiguy: raises $4
Jere29012: calls $4
DrTukolu: calls $2
Goodshot: calls $2
----- 5th STREET -----
dealt to tsiguy [2d 3d 6d 5d][8s]
dealt to Jere29012 [Ks Qd][9s]
dealt to DrTukolu [5s 5h][Ts]
dealt to Goodshot [7d 8h][Js]
DrTukolu: bets $1.75 and is all-in
Goodshot: raises $3.75
tsiguy: calls $3.75
Jere29012: raises $5.75
Goodshot: calls $2
tsiguy: calls $2
----- 6th STREET -----
dealt to tsiguy [2d 3d 6d 5d 8s][6s]
dealt to Jere29012 [Ks Qd 9s][Kc]
dealt to DrTukolu [5s 5h Ts][4d]
dealt to Goodshot [7d 8h Js][3s]
Jere29012: checks
Goodshot: checks
tsiguy: checks
----- RIVER -----
dealt to tsiguy [2d 3d 6d 5d 8s 6s][2c]
Jere29012: bets $2
Goodshot: raises $4
tsiguy: calls $4
Jere29012: is all-in $0.25
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Goodshot: shows [Ad As 7s 7d Js 8h 3s] (Two Pairs, Aces and Sevens, Jack high)
tsiguy: shows [6d 6s 2c 2d 8s 5d 3d] (Two Pairs, Sixes and Twos, Eight high)
Jere29012: shows [9s Tc Jh Qd Kc Ks 2h] (A Straight, King high)
DrTukolu: mucks hand
Goodshot collected $3.50 from Side pot #2
Jere29012 collected $18 from Side pot #1
Jere29012 collected $46.75 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $71.25 Main pot $46.75 Side pot #1 $18 | Side pot #2 $3.50 | Rake $3
Seat 1: tsiguy lost
Seat 4: Jere29012 showed [9s Tc Jh Qd Kc Ks 2h] and won ($64.75) with A Straight, King high
Seat 6: Sniffer folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Goodshot showed [Ad As 7s 7d Js 8h 3s] and won ($3.50) with Two Pairs, Aces and Sevens, Jack high

on 4th street i had a flush draw, and with 3 cards to go there was a pretty good chance i hit, so thats why i capped, for maximum hand value. anyways, im pretty new so please tell me how i could have playd this better.

[1988 TR]

I think it is ok to cap it there, although I would have been a little worried about the 55 showing.

Not sure I would have called the river bets though. I know it was a big pot, but to call a bet and a raise cold, I don't think your little 2 pair had virtually any chance of winning.

[greathuskie]

1988, yea i know, but look at the size of the pot compared to the size of the bet, i only had to win the pot 1 out of like 15 times for it to be a profitable call, coorrect?

haha me and you play much the same way, for maximum value with the chance of losing our stack

[1988 TR]

1988, yea i know, but look at the size of the pot compared to the size of the bet, i only had to win the pot 1 out of like 15 times for it to be a profitable call, coorrect?

haha me and you play much the same way, for maximum value with the chance of losing our stack

I agree - VERY hard to fold there at 15-1.....Since 6th street was checked around, I would have thought I had a chance with the 2 pair on the river, but after the bet & raise, even if I called, I would be pretty sure I was donating. But you are right.... Sometimes you will win with that call. Weather if it is 1 out of 15 is anyones guess.

I like being agressive & not worrying about if I lose a pot - Those guys that wanted you to be aggressive on the flop with the stone cold nuts with a very innocent, rainbow board are a little too much on the crack pipe and maybe need to ask their wives for their balls that most undoubtedly are in her purse.

That is very different than the thread where the guy had QQ and let Q2 beat him. QQ is a good hand, but very dangerous & does not lend itself to slow playing. Any A or K hits and you can't call big bets. You need to get your money in fast & not get cute. Losing to Q2 is just not acceptable given any sizeable bet at any point would have chased the guy out. He had Q2 pre flop, Q high on flop, pair of dueces on the turn, & then finally rivers another 2 for trips. If he wants to do that, you need to make him pay Pre flop, on the flop, and if the board is not scary, I want to be all in on the turn for sure.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Problem #1: I fold this on third street, no questions asked. Yes, you have three diamonds with only one other exposed, but that is ALL you have. I don't like calling 3 suited cards without two high cards or an ace for the situations like this one: if you get your fourth diamond, you are going to get stuck in the hand. If you have high cards to go with your diamonds, you have a chance at making big pairs, which can also win. True you have straightening cards, but for one thing, it forms a very low straight, and for another, you will certainly be drawing to the inside.

Problem #2: If you insist on playing this hand, do not play it for a raise. You will do better by limping in here to see a cheap 4th street, because if you don't catch a diamond, you should fold. Besides, you want a multi-way pot to pay off your draw.

I don't mind the raise on 4th street to try and buy a free card, but you were raising into a guy with an exposed pair, which greatly weakens your hand, even though you have a 5 as well. Now, unfortunately, with the straight flush draw, you are kinda stuck in this pot, although there are now 2 other exposed diamonds out there. I certainly disagree with the re-raise here. You don't have a good enough hand to justify this--all you are doing is giving yourself odds to pot-stick yourself even more. True, you want maximum value from your flush, but it's a low flush, and there's an exposed pair, so it is far from bullet proof. Remember, it's not like Hold'em where the same board that helps you helps your opponent, so you can't always get the same value with 3 cards to come that you can in Hold'em.

By 5th street, it's clear you won't get to draw for cheap, and you don't have anything but low draws. I might drop the hand at this point, but as you said, there's so much money in the pot that you're trapped.

On 6th street, your straight flush is killed, and with it, most of your reason for staying in the hand.

River: exactly what you didn't want. You caught two pair, a hand you almost certainly have to call with.


I think your big problem is that you got committed too early with a hand that, I'm sorry to say, really isn't very good.

[1988 TR]

I don't exactly agree.

You make a good point though about the cap - Since you want to keep poeple in for your flush draw, capping there probably isn't the best move, I didn' think of that.

But 3 connected suited cards to start - I'll play that no problem. Once you get the flush draw on 4th street, it is definitely a hand worth playing - Not to mention you had a straight flush draw.

You had 7 flush outs and 3 more straight outs with 3 cards left. The only thing scary on the board is the 55, but you also have a 5. I think you have a strong hand at this point - Maybe 2 bet next (instead of cap) to get the pot going without losing all your customers.

[Phil14312]

I also agree that you shouldn't raise on 3rd street with this hand. Maybe call, I don't think I call here though. If you read the original super system's 7 card stud section written by Chip Reese, he values flush and straight draws only with high cards, because you get the additional outs with high cards. You have a MUCH greater possibility of winning the pot with Aces up then two baby pairs.

Now I realize everything isn't cut and dry and you must listen to some stupid book. But, a major starting hand requirement in 7 card stud is high cards. Now thats not to say I would not have called with your hand either, but I definately have mucked these hands on the 3rd street a majority of the time.

I also don't know if I call that raise on 7th street. I don't think you can win 1-15 times given the action. Somone has made a higher two-pair or a hand that can beat it. Now for 1 bet you would be getting much better odds on a call so I would call for 1 bet but not cold-call 2 bets with the chance it gets re-raised and capped behind me. If that happens what do you do? Call the capped 7th street and pray? Just fold and be confident your hand will almost never be best.

[Phil14312]

Oh and lets steer clear of the hold'em QQ vs. Q2 thread...I don't think this is the place.

[1988 TR]

Good point on the opening raise - With those 3 low cards, a flat call would probably have been more appropriate.

I don't venture into 7 card stud all that often (if you can't tell). But when I do, it usually is hi/low in which case your starting hand (especially on 4th street) is a FANTASTIC starting hand.

[1988 TR]

Oh and lets steer clear of the hold'em QQ vs. Q2 thread...I don't think this is the place.

It is always the place.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Oh definitely if this were Hi/Lo, that would be a phenomenal starting hand. But in high only, it is a much weaker hand than it appears. I just think it's too easy to get trapped in what will essentially be an even money situation.

He had pot odds to call, but you don't have as many ways to win as you otherwise would in Hold'em with community cards.

[flafishy]

That raise on third street is totally uncalled for. You have far from a made hand, but it's a hand that if it does get made, you want as many people in the pot as possible. So it's neither a good value nor a good strategic raise.

I probably would have limped with it. But I definitely would have tossed it after the guy behind you raised.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

That raise on third street is totally uncalled for. You have far from a made hand, but it's a hand that if it does get made, you want as many people in the pot as possible. So it's neither a good value nor a good strategic raise.

I probably would have limped with it. But I definitely would have tossed it after the guy behind you raised.

Could not have said it better myself. I heartily agree.