Advice On Hand

[Brucio]

PokerStars Game #23378074744: Hold'em No Limit (100/200) - 2008/12/29 17:40:31 ET
Table 'Margarita IV' 9-max (Play Money) Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: anariva09 (71728 in chips)
Seat 4: esoo-boy (28924 in chips)
Seat 5: IHazACarrot (6214 in chips)
Seat 6: jipper40 (39800 in chips)
Seat 9: rafet.ba (20200 in chips)
IHazACarrot: posts small blind 100
jipper40: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IHazACarrot [9c 8d]
rafet.ba: calls 200
anariva09: folds
esoo-boy: calls 200
IHazACarrot: calls 100
jipper40: checks
*** FLOP *** [8c Ad Qs]
IHazACarrot: bets 200
jipper40: calls 200
rafet.ba: calls 200
esoo-boy: calls 200
*** TURN *** [8c Ad Qs] [Tc]
IHazACarrot: bets 400
jipper40: calls 400
rafet.ba: folds
esoo-boy: folds
*** RIVER *** [8c Ad Qs Tc] [3s]
IHazACarrot: bets 800
jipper40: folds
Uncalled bet (800) returned to IHazACarrot
IHazACarrot collected 2400 from pot
IHazACarrot: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2400 | Rake 0
Board [8c Ad Qs Tc 3s]
Seat 1: anariva09 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: esoo-boy (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: IHazACarrot (small blind) collected (2400)
Seat 6: jipper40 (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 9: rafet.ba folded on the Turn

Did I play this correctly?

[odlozilik]

Well, betting out of position into 3 players with the bottom pair isn't smart, you were very lucky to take that down.

[Brucio]

Ya, I was somewhat thinking that at the time. What should I have done better? Wait for position?

Also this hand:

PokerStars Game #23383253268: Hold'em No Limit (1/2) - 2008/12/29 20:21:39 ET
Table 'Antares III' 9-max (Play Money) Seat #5 is the button
Seat 4: justarocker (1308 in chips)
Seat 5: i3bigdaddy (434 in chips)
Seat 6: IHazACarrot (538 in chips)
Seat 7: lovecraft20 (132 in chips)
Seat 8: nakedkris (84 in chips)
Seat 9: ceesser1980 (2008 in chips)
IHazACarrot: posts small blind 1
lovecraft20: posts big blind 2
hustles81: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IHazACarrot [Ac Ah]
nakedkris: calls 2
ceesser1980: calls 2
justarocker: folds
i3bigdaddy: calls 2
IHazACarrot: raises 2 to 4
lovecraft20: calls 2
nakedkris: calls 2
ceesser1980: calls 2
i3bigdaddy: calls 2
*** FLOP *** [5s Jc 4c]
IHazACarrot: bets 10
lovecraft20: folds
nakedkris: calls 10
ceesser1980: raises 10 to 20
i3bigdaddy: calls 20
IHazACarrot: calls 10
nakedkris: calls 10
*** TURN *** [5s Jc 4c] [9h]
IHazACarrot: bets 38
nakedkris: folds
ceesser1980: calls 38
i3bigdaddy: calls 38
*** RIVER *** [5s Jc 4c 9h] [9s]
IHazACarrot: bets 64
ceesser1980: calls 64
i3bigdaddy: raises 64 to 128
IHazACarrot: calls 64
ceesser1980: calls 64
*** SHOW DOWN ***
i3bigdaddy: shows [9c 4d] (a full house, Nines full of Fours)
IHazACarrot: mucks hand
ceesser1980: mucks hand
i3bigdaddy collected 598 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 598 | Rake 0
Board [5s Jc 4c 9h 9s]
Seat 4: justarocker folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: i3bigdaddy (button) showed [9c 4d] and won (598) with a full house, Nines full of Fours
Seat 6: IHazACarrot (small blind) mucked [Ac Ah]
Seat 7: lovecraft20 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: nakedkris folded on the Turn
Seat 9: ceesser1980 mucked [2h Jd]

[odlozilik]

When playing big pocket pairs, you should wish not to have many opponents postflop, because it's quite probable that at least one of them will outdraw you.
So, to achieve that, you should raise pre-flop more, in this case 13 or more (some basic formula is 4BB+1BB per limper). Some sites have the raise pot button, you can use that too if available.

[Brucio]

Ok so I thinking right by raising pre-flop, I just didn't raise enough to scare anyone off?

[miaowmiaowchowface]

in the first hand you should fold preflop, then check-fold the flop and check fold the streets after that. You don't seem to know why you're betting at all- think about what you're trying to accomplish every moveu make

[Brucio]

sorry, I'm not following you

[supafrey]

sorry, I'm not following you

He's saying it's a terrible, terrible line to bluff because of how "random" it is. Nobody expects you to show up there with a decent hand, so it seems like you're just forcing the issue - miaomiao is saying you should have a plan for every street before you commit these kind of weak smallish raises that just bleed chips. Calling preflop is pretty meh too.

[zinn0]

are we really analyzing play-money hands on thp now?

[odlozilik]

are we really analyzing play-money hands on thp now?

I didn't notice it's play money, how naive I actually am, lol!
Hand 2 is easy shove then.

[Brucio]

Alright then, here is a real money hand for ya.

Do you think I did a good job of milking the most chips out of this hand?

PokerStars Game #23419059219: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/12/30 21:33:04 ET
Table 'Miram' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Marmel88 ($0.79 in chips)
Seat 2: _ovlop ($1.24 in chips)
Seat 3: jds0413 ($1.03 in chips)
Seat 4: JulianGSTAR ($3.08 in chips)
Seat 5: p1nke ($5.16 in chips)
Seat 6: IHazACarrot ($2.34 in chips)
Seat 7: copeton ($4.87 in chips)
Seat 8: jacksandfour ($2.52 in chips)
Seat 9: muse7300 ($3.21 in chips)
copeton: posts small blind $0.01
jacksandfour: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IHazACarrot [Ac Jd]
muse7300: folds
Marmel88: folds
_ovlop: folds
jds0413: calls $0.02
JulianGSTAR: calls $0.02
p1nke: folds
IHazACarrot: raises $0.02 to $0.04
copeton: folds
jacksandfour: calls $0.02
jds0413: calls $0.02
JulianGSTAR: calls $0.02
*** FLOP *** [Jc 7h Ad]
jacksandfour: checks
jds0413: bets $0.08
JulianGSTAR: calls $0.08
IHazACarrot: calls $0.08
jacksandfour: folds
*** TURN *** [Jc 7h Ad] [2c]
jds0413: checks
JulianGSTAR: bets $0.11
IHazACarrot: calls $0.11
jds0413: calls $0.11
*** RIVER *** [Jc 7h Ad 2c] [9h]
jds0413: checks
JulianGSTAR: bets $0.10
IHazACarrot: raises $0.10 to $0.20
jds0413: folds
JulianGSTAR: calls $0.10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IHazACarrot: shows [Ac Jd] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
JulianGSTAR: mucks hand
IHazACarrot collected $1.09 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.14 | Rake $0.05
Board [Jc 7h Ad 2c 9h]
Seat 1: Marmel88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: _ovlop folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: jds0413 folded on the River
Seat 4: JulianGSTAR mucked [5s Ah]
Seat 5: p1nke folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: IHazACarrot (button) showed [Ac Jd] and won ($1.09) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 7: copeton (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: jacksandfour (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: muse7300 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[miaowmiaowchowface]

are we really analyzing play-money hands on thp now?

haha

[buckeyes77]

I mean you slow-played this about as slow as can be done and then value-raised on the river. Sometimes I like to just call on the river when there is potential raise action behind me but it looked like jds0413 was on a straight draw so in this case value-raise will work best here. I don't know if that was your line of thought when you value-raised but it worked out.

However, I would have played this hand very different than you because of the following reasons: (1) Hitting top two on the flop with 4 players in the pot (2) half-pot weak bet from jds0413 (best hand I'm putting him on at this pt is top pair) and then a call in front of you and potential call behind you

=

INSTA-RAISE

I won't get into the other streets since I'd play the flop differently than you but I'm raising a very nice amount because: (1) if anyone is on a straight draw i'm making them pay to see the turn (2) if anyone hit an Ace, i'm hoping for a call to go heads-up with to the turn. (3) if anyone re-raises me I'm thinking A-x or A7 is way more likely than a set of 7's and i'm pushing everytime here for a double-up (4) if anyone pushes on my raise, I'm thinking K10 or Q10 and I'm calling everytime.

That's how I would think while playing this particular hand.

Alright then, here is a real money hand for ya.

Do you think I did a good job of milking the most chips out of this hand?

PokerStars Game #23419059219: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/12/30 21:33:04 ET
Table 'Miram' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Marmel88 ($0.79 in chips)
Seat 2: _ovlop ($1.24 in chips)
Seat 3: jds0413 ($1.03 in chips)
Seat 4: JulianGSTAR ($3.08 in chips)
Seat 5: p1nke ($5.16 in chips)
Seat 6: IHazACarrot ($2.34 in chips)
Seat 7: copeton ($4.87 in chips)
Seat 8: jacksandfour ($2.52 in chips)
Seat 9: muse7300 ($3.21 in chips)
copeton: posts small blind $0.01
jacksandfour: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IHazACarrot [Ac Jd]
muse7300: folds
Marmel88: folds
_ovlop: folds
jds0413: calls $0.02
JulianGSTAR: calls $0.02
p1nke: folds
IHazACarrot: raises $0.02 to $0.04
copeton: folds
jacksandfour: calls $0.02
jds0413: calls $0.02
JulianGSTAR: calls $0.02
*** FLOP *** [Jc 7h Ad]
jacksandfour: checks
jds0413: bets $0.08
JulianGSTAR: calls $0.08
IHazACarrot: calls $0.08
jacksandfour: folds
*** TURN *** [Jc 7h Ad] [2c]
jds0413: checks
JulianGSTAR: bets $0.11
IHazACarrot: calls $0.11
jds0413: calls $0.11
*** RIVER *** [Jc 7h Ad 2c] [9h]
jds0413: checks
JulianGSTAR: bets $0.10
IHazACarrot: raises $0.10 to $0.20
jds0413: folds
JulianGSTAR: calls $0.10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IHazACarrot: shows [Ac Jd] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
JulianGSTAR: mucks hand
IHazACarrot collected $1.09 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.14 | Rake $0.05
Board [Jc 7h Ad 2c 9h]
Seat 1: Marmel88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: _ovlop folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: jds0413 folded on the River
Seat 4: JulianGSTAR mucked [5s Ah]
Seat 5: p1nke folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: IHazACarrot (button) showed [Ac Jd] and won ($1.09) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 7: copeton (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: jacksandfour (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: muse7300 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[PaulieRockets]

There is an idea held by beginning players that they should "suck money out of the others." This leads to the abysmal play of these hands.

They flat call premium hands because they want more money in the pot. They min-raise if at all. They ignore position completely. They get sucked-out on repeatedly and curse the poker gods for their "bad luck".

I actually had to check to see if you were discussing a Limit game! A min-raise is next to useless

Here's a, hopefully, sobering thought: AA is a huge favorite against any hand, but it drops to about 33% to win against 4 random hands. The idea would therefore be to build a big pot with 1 or 2 players, NOT to keep everyone in the game. If your raise folds around to you, so be it... you can't go broke picking up pots, any pots.

In the long run, you win when your opponent(s) make mistakes... i.e. calling when they shouldn't or folding when they shouldn't. Even when you won the hand, you induced no mistakes, therefore they did not lose (so to speak), they just did their jobs

Most suck-outs are nothing more than allowing a drawing hand to stick around cheaply. How often is that happening to you? Very often, I'll bet.

[Muck]

There is an idea held by beginning players that they should "suck money out of the others."
...

Summary: Greedy can cost you.