All-In Strategy

[graphix14]

Many people wonder what is gained by an all-in bet after someone has raised the minimum (or unusually small bets) the whole way.....

Hand #73578-209 at Bielefeld (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 03/Feb/03 20:02:33

MatTheGoth is at seat 2 with $88.75.
graphix14 is at seat 5 with $120.50.
Josh8888 is at seat 8 with $118.50 (sitting out).
The button is at seat 2.

MatTheGoth posts the small blind of $.50.
graphix14 posts the big blind of $1.

MatTheGoth: -- --
graphix14: Ac As

Pre-flop:

MatTheGoth calls $.50. graphix14 checks.

Flop (board: 4d 4h Kd):

graphix14 checks. MatTheGoth bets $1. graphix14
calls $1.

Turn (board: 4d 4h Kd Ad):

graphix14 checks. MatTheGoth bets $1. graphix14
calls $1.

River (board: 4d 4h Kd Ad Tc):

graphix14 bets $117.50, goes all-in. MatTheGoth calls
all-in for $85.75.

Showdown:

graphix14 shows Ac As. 8)
graphix14 has Ac As 4d 4h Ad: full house, aces full of fours.
MatTheGoth shows Kh 4s.
MatTheGoth has Kh 4s 4d 4h Kd: full house, fours full of kings.


Hand #73578-209 Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $177.50.
graphix14 wins $176.50 with full house, aces full of fours.

.....the answer is: Approximately $88.25

[HalfSugar]

Lol, nice story. Thank god he didn't have pocket fours huh?

[StanSmith]

I'm not sure this story tells the story you think it does. It looks to me more like "guess what can happen when you slowplay your ace"

On the flop you went from strong favorite to incredible underdog, needing one of two aces to save you.

Martin

[graphix14]

Martin,

I think you misunderstood the story. There would be no story if he had bet the flop strong. Obviously I can't call....after all, any good player knows when to fold big pairs when you are staring down a paired board on the flop. For the minimum bet, of course I'll call.

This could just as easily been a horror story for someone that didn't bet his AA preflop. The flop falls K 4 4. Opponent bet's minimum. "Slowplayer" goes all in, thinking he has the best hand (as so many amateurs love to do). Opponent calls because he has flopped a boat and "Slowplayer" doesn't catch one of his two outs.

The point is, it cost me $2 to get $88+. It is highly unlikely that someone would dare bet quads on the flop. It was pretty clear that I was money on the turn.

Slowplaying gets people hurt when they don't know when to fold. I am always prepared to fold my big pairs on the occassion that I don't bet them preflop. However, if I hit and someone is betting into me because they can't fathom that I could possiby have them beat......well, it's payday.

This example is much more a study in the exploitation of a weak players mistake. He should've found out sooner where I was in the hand. I could've just as easily had A4, but he never took the time to consider betting correctly to find out.

[StanSmith]

Thanks for the followup, but I still disagree that this story illustrates what you think it does. Most people know there's money to be made when two people catch boats, and I say the presence of those two boats overshadows any other illustrative purposes of the hand.

what is gained by an all-in bet after someone has raised the minimum (or unusually small bets) the whole way

It shows what can happen in a very unlikely scenario, one boat against another.

Most people raising the minimum don't have a boat, and with the lousy pot odds at that point, they would fold. That means "what is gained" nine times out of ten is the current (small) pot.

Your example shows how nice it can be when a really great hand comes in second, and the reason I brought up slowplaying is because it's also a nice example of the pitfalls therein. It doesn't show anything about the benefit of an all-in bet at the river in anything but a very rare case.

Martin

[General Sal]

If I read it correctly it

Flop: Mat the Goth - leader with full house (4s full)

Turn: Grafx - leader with aces full of fours

River: Grafx - leader

I think you got lucky when he slowplayed his full house. Had he went all in on the flop, would you have called?

(But hey you won, right?! You did well to slow play back at him with your deadly hand... what's this game without luck?)

[graphix14]

There is no way I call an all-in bet on this particular flop. There was no raise preflop so I have to give him at the very least a AK but more likely he has a 4. I don't put him on K4 but it is a moot point. I am folding easily.

It seems as though some think I got extremely lucky here. Luck would be calling his all-in bet and catching my A on the turn. There is no "luck" whatsoever here.

There is no hidden story or great lesson behind this example. I posted this as an example of something that I do just in case someone has caught a hand and is pondering a call. I do not do it every time. But there are occassions that I consider someone having a great but inferior hand to my own. It is a borderline call for them, and yet most times they err on the side of risk. I try to play on people's curiousity and put them to "thinking". When people think to much and don't "fold" bad things happen.

I have several hand histories that I have from the past that still amazes me. For instance: Checking a the nut straight made on the turn with 3 people in. River card doensn't hurt me. I check back to the raiser. He raises SMALL. I pause for a couple moments and reraise 4 times the pot size. Yes, you guessed it......he calls with his trips.

One can analyze this Boat Scenario over and over. It all comes down to this: If the board is paired and graphix14 is in till the river.....

it's rebuy time if you call my bet. 8)

[StanSmith]

There is no hidden story or great lesson behind this example. I posted this as an example of something that I do just in case someone has caught a hand and is pondering a call.

Ok, it makes a lot of sense when you put it like that (as an example of your play against a weak better, rather than as an example with those particular cards as I originally saw it). You certainly stood to make money after that bet, whether it be a small pot or some skeptic's entire stack.

Martin

[graphix14]

You have recognized my point exactly Martin. It is important to me to be understood by those that study the game and are great players in their own right.

My reason for posting was not meant to show off a big pot won. But, more importantly to consider at every stage of the hand what my opponent is holding and what his or her bet is telling me.

By the way, this is a good example that occured just a couple days ago.

This particular player was loose to begin with. I had been watching him closely and was waiting for a hand to do something with.

Hand #432296-745 at Chalk Hill (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 18/Sep/03 20:49:42

jaypup is at seat 0 with $47.
The Nihilist is at seat 1 with $49.25.
graphix14 is at seat 3 with $49.
uKnowMyStyle is at seat 4 with $75.75.
Gster is at seat 6 with $50.65.
reek is at seat 7 with $6.55.
cdabluffer is at seat 8 with $23.35.
royal_flush is at seat 9 with $24.25.
The button is at seat 9.

jaypup posts the small blind of $.25.
The Nihilist posts the big blind of $.50.

jaypup: -- --
The Nihilist: -- --
graphix14: Ah Ad
uKnowMyStyle: -- --
Gster: -- --
reek: -- --
cdabluffer: -- --
royal_flush: -- --

Pre-flop:

graphix14 calls. uKnowMyStyle folds. Gster calls.
reek folds. cdabluffer folds. royal_flush folds.
jaypup calls. The Nihilist checks.

Flop (board: 4s As 8c):

jaypup checks. The Nihilist checks. graphix14
checks. Gster bets $2. jaypup folds. The Nihilist
folds. graphix14 calls.

Turn (board: 4s As 8c 8h):

graphix14 checks. Gster bets $6. graphix14 calls.


River (board: 4s As 8c 8h 6s):

graphix14 bets $38. Gster goes all-in for $42.15.
graphix14 goes all-in for $40.50. Gster is returned
$1.65 (uncalled).



Showdown:

Gster shows 7h 5h.
Gster has 7h 5h 4s 8c 6s: straight, eight high.
graphix14 shows Ah Ad.
graphix14 has Ah Ad As 8c 8h: full house, aces full of eights.


Hand #432296-745 Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $99.
graphix14 wins $97 with full house, aces full of eights.


When he RERAISED my $38 bet on the river, I figured he caught his flush.
But as you can see once again, he didn't even consider me for a flush. This guy bet modestly on the flop against a flush draw with his gutshot straight. This is the caliber of player that is suseptable to my particular bet on the river. His thinking was most likely that I slowplayed trip 8s. Otherwise I simply don't understand his reraise.

Anyway, thanks for understanding my point Martin.

[JJK1]

Look, The bottom line is this.... When you have a big pair, Aces or Kings you will do one of two things. "Win a small pot or loose a big one" as Doyle put's it. This is more common than what had happened to you.

The proper play pre flop is to never just call the blind with Aces. You posted it however when it came back to you you should have raised it a substantial amount if not take it all in, Most likely the K4 would have folded his hand. How could he stay in with that? However in your favor I will say it is hard to justify when there is a small anti structure like the game you were playing and there is not much to win. that would have been a very small win for a big sacrafice.

Maybe this will help you justify it though..... The goal again is to rake in as many small pots as you can to pay for the bigger pots you are in there gambling for. You also have to hold a table image, that image has to be aggressive. When I am in a hand I make sure that my opponent knows that if he plays with me he will be playing for a good portion of his money and at times all of his money. you have to gambel a little but leave yourself outs. In addition you want to get your oppononet used to folding to you, he will fold more out of habit a lot of times. Plus when he does have a hand he will let you know it.

He knows you are an aggressive player and will want to shut you out of the pot right away. If he stays in with you to the flop than you make the determination of how to play when you get to that bridge. Since he seems like a docile player and possibly even a week player he most likely would have checked that flop to you anyway trying to trap you. With a flop like that you would obviously check along trying to improve as cheaply as possible. A strong player would obviously bet out 9 times out of 10 with a bottom full house. in that case you would obviously have to fold.

You got lucky on that hand and even though you ended up winning a big pot you sacraficed a little of your table image to do so.

[Dave B]

Great post JJK1.

I seem to snowball, either winning or losing. You post help me to start re-thinking things again. When I win, I am play aggressive and win lots of pots. When I am losing, I play tighter and even w/ better hands, I cant get people to fold in limit games-even w/ better hands. Eventually I stumble into a lot of bad beats.

One question for you, do you have better luck playing only a few hands aggressively, or being in lots of hands and keeping people constantly aware of your presence?

[JJK1]

David B

Thanks for your reply to my posting. To give you an idea of what is a winning technique for me. When I enter a hand I am usually in there playing it aggressively. I like to be in the lead. There are occasions where I will slow down and shift gears. I base a lot of my decisions on position, the type of players I am up against and the overall tempo of the game. I like my opponents to be tight and docile, people that think it is ok to call with aces or Kings in the hole preflop (FYI : This is not a stab at the original poster Graphix)

here is a good example of a position I always play aggresivly from: When I am on the button, I will raise the pot no matter what my cards are. I might as well not even have cards. I rarely fold here unless someone moves all in on me and I have week cards. At that point I am playing my position not my cards. My opponent will figure me for big cards. If I am re-raised I will call and take a flop. Then I know my opponent has to have some type of a hand, If he called the blind and than re-raised from early position when the betting get's back around I would figure him on AA, KK or AK. I know he probably has big cards if he is re-raising me, especially from early position.

When the flop comes, again I will raise it again regardless of what comes on the flop. My raise is going to be a substantial amount. If I get re-raised on the flop with out a hand I will have to give up the pot. If I am called without a hand from that point on I would check and try to show it down unless I place my opponent on some type of draw say a straight or a flush and a rag falls on 4th I will bet out again. And of course on 5th if it looks like he missed I will take another stab at it. Obviously if someone makes a play on me I will fold it on the flop. Another time I will give the hand up is if the flop comes out something scary like 10 J Q suited and I do not have a hand. I do not even fool with that. I give up my hand right away if I was betting with out a hand preflop. That is just one example.

There are many more examples I can give you. However you can find this info from good books such as Super/System by Doyle Brunson. That is the bible of poker. Especially for no limit holdem. Just remeber that these are just guidlines, my play will change depending on the situation and tempo of the game.

another thing to keep in mind. I noticed you had referenced limit hold em. What I tell you here only applies to No Limit Hold' em. You play the two in a very different manner.

Good Luck,

JJK1

[TheMrLegendary]

2 words. Re-Raise, All-In!!!!!!!

[JJK1]

That is something I would do from the button too (Re-
raise All in). It alwasy comes down to the player. If it is a real tight player who I know would only re-raise me with Aces in the hole I may not even call. It depends on a lot of different factors

[cue_ball2163]

The person with the bullets should of pushed out any k4, and if the person with the k4 calles a big bet pre-flop they are asking to lose money anyway. It was a very poor play to slow roll that much with such a low full house, any higher pocket pair could have beaten the boat.