Avoiding the Rocks and Shoals in Tournys

[lwestatbus]

I took several beatings in fixed limit ring games last week that got me thinking about the same sort of issues in NL tournys (I guess they apply to NL cash games as well, though I try hard not to think of those--not something I ever want to do again).

While some of the losses came from chasing excellent draws that didn't come in (I understand the math in these cases and think I can apply it reasonably well in tournys) the losses that got me thinking were in the general category of me making an excellent hand that got clobbered by an unlikely but better hand.

The mother of all examples is, of course, the small pocket pair that makes a set or boat (or even quads). But other examples might be better straights or better flushes (on a 3-flush board), especially if the only cards that can beat you are cards a good player would be unlikely to have held on to.

I deal with these in FL games by not getting (too) rattled and hoping that I can do unto them more often than they do unto me.

But what do all of you tourny or NL cash game players do when you're sitting there with an excellent hand that is not the nuts and then have an opponent make a big move at you that will bust or cripple you if you're beat?

For example (all of these scenarios happened to me last week and all are after the river card has been dealt):

1. You have a king high flush to a 3-flush board and the ONLY thing that can beat you is Ax suited in the suit of your flush.

2. You have a straight with 7-9 hole cards and the ONLY thing that can beat you is J-9.

3. You flopped a set of nines and the ONLY thing that can beat you is pocket jacks.

I don't necessarily want to know what you would do in each of these situations but HOW do you decide what to do in the face of a big move?

[Jernej Zorec]

assign probable range of his hands, run it in pokerstove for example, see
how u fare against his range and what were the odds, and adjust for next time if u made a mistake with time u'll see what correct moves are

[MrDarling]

In cash its pretty easy. I stack up on 1 and 3 and almost always fold 2, pending reads.

On MTT I stack even faster with sets or 2nd Flush, pending reads.
The 2 is more of a problem. But since 9J is a very playable hand, I might fold it as well.
Had you ask 53 vs 57 thats a much harder fold. See why?

As a side note, as a fix limit player, how can you even start adjusting to NL MTT's?

[Jauron]

Consider the action it took to get to where you were now, how villain played things to get there and if you can make the hands you are afraid of fit, the entire hand, not just at the end.

I'd also ask in some cases how are bets getting this big? Are you forcing action, 3 or 4 betting the hands you are suddenly afraid of? Are you drawing to these hands, it's expensive and then considering if they are good when you hit? Are you flopping these?

Pot control isn't always for overpairs, sometimes you need to use it when you have a big hand but there are bigger out there.

FWIW there better be life changing money on the line if the only hand that can beat you is a higher set and you are considering folding.

[lwestatbus]

As a side note, as a fix limit player, how can you even start adjusting to NL MTT's?

LOL--By drinking heavily.

Actually by doing a couple of things:

1. I like to think that if have a pretty good understanding of the math in FL cash games. I started out in FL because the math was easier and the risk was lower. And I've been working on it for about 3 years now.

2. Reading Harrington. I can't remember everything I need to remember in all situations but, as with the FL, more things become ingrained with experience and I don't have to remember everything all the time.

3. Adapting the math to NL. This is actually exciting 'offensively'. At the flop and turn it is pretty easy to know where you stand with a hand and the ability to craft a bet to drive out opponents on a draw is pretty interesting. Of course, that doesn't protect you from the lucky bastards.

4. The original post is actually from thinking about the math 'devensively', reacting to an opponent's aggression in the face of my own good made hand. In FL it is usually correct to just call him down and look him up. But when looking him up is fatal or crippling in a NL tourny that is a lot different from paying another big bet.

It is still baby steps. But I love the Forum as I can post my questions and usually get some pretty insightful answers. Thanks for all of yours in numerous posts, by the way.

[Jernej Zorec]

playing limit always helped my mtt game, once u know the general ideas about mtt,
one of very important things in limit is gap concept which is also very important in mtts, and thats just one of reasons why it makes my mtt game sharper

[MrDarling]

Yeah, but the main thing that is missing in limit is the ability to push people off a better hand.

In MTT this become very important later on, especially PF. Stealing the blinds and restealing is what makes most successful players...mm... successful.

Aggressiveness is still the right mode in most low-mid levels MTT.

But hi, I suck at Limit so maybe I'm missing something.

[Jernej Zorec]

Yeah, but the main thing that is missing in limit is the ability to push people off a better hand.

In MTT this become very important later on, especially PF. Stealing the blinds and restealing is what makes most successful players...mm... successful.

Aggressiveness is still the right mode in most low-mid levels MTT.

But hi, I suck at Limit so maybe I'm missing something.

like i said one u know the basic of mtt play ( that what stealing and restealing is) it really isnt a problem,
besides
i doubt ur doing restealing soo much more in nl ring are u ?

and even in limit u have to 3 bet people without much sometimes if u see they go after your blinds a lot