decent article here, if u got a few mins spare read imo

[kompis]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5076268.ece

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Yeah, the simple answer is "class." It's not so much that black people are disproportionally underachievers, but that poor people are disproportionally black. Add in certain cultural factors that people are uncomfortable discussing and metrics for success that favor other ethnic groups, and you get a much messier story.

[Kemics]

For whatever reason most societies are still very restrictive on upward class mobility. Born poor, die poor. The infrastructure is there but some social zietgiest etc is making difficult to use. As an example Obama might help significantly. Its all well and good saying "When you grow up you can be president" when every single president has been white, wealthy and middle-aged. If (and i really hope he does) Obama becomes president he proves its possible.

[UrAteUp]

The whole thing boils down to individuals and not groups in my opinion. If you push to better yourself and work hard to overcome obsticles that stand in your way you will succeed and be a person of something in this world.

It does not matter what race, nationality, religion or sex you are. It does not matter that you come from poverty or have a poor family life. The key is to get proper education, training or what have you to succeed in life. Stop being lazy and waiting for someone to give it to you. Work for it. It will be much more rewarding in the end.

It is too easy to point fingers and play the racist card. Far too easy in this country.

[MJJ]

It does not matter what race, nationality, religion or sex you are. It does not matter that you come from poverty or have a poor family life. The key is to get proper education, training or what have you to succeed in life. Stop being lazy and waiting for someone to give it to you. Work for it. It will be much more rewarding in the end.

It is too easy to point fingers and play the racist card. Far too easy in this country.

So you are saying a black woman from a poor single parent urban family and a white male from a traditional middle class family in the burbs have the same chance at success in America?
You don't think there is any relationship between social status and access to education/training?

There are certainly examples of people who overcome their socioeconomic level to become a 'success' but it is beyond reason to argue that your race/gender/income level doesn't factor in to your opportunities for success.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

It does not matter what race, nationality, religion or sex you are. It does not matter that you come from poverty or have a poor family life.

Yes, it does. It really does. This is like saying, "it doesn't matter what you start with in Hold'em, any two cards can win!"

Certainly, 72o occasionally cracks Aces. But it is a FACT that Aces win a lot more often. Likewise, it is a FACT that you are more likely to be "successful" in society if you were born to a white, affluent family than to a black, poor family. The latter will not necessarily under-perform the former, but think for a second about what "more likely" means.

[Kemics]

what an appropriate analogy nice work diamond.

I really think its VERY important to think in terms of class and not race. A view that was in part pioneered by Paul Robeson a actor/activist from the 1940's, with whom i couldn't agree more. Focusing on race is a mistake.

Growing up in a working class environment (regardless of skin color) equips you with certain behaviors and knowledge through which you engage with everything around you. These established discourses are such a fundamental part of hegemony that they are rarely even noticed (which ironically shows how powerful they are). To try and subvert and and explore beyond your social paradigm is an incredible feat, not unachievable, but simply beyond what ever experience in life has prepared you for.

For example think of a university student from a wealthy family placed in salford, Manchester. He would have the shit kicked out of him within the hour. Class migration is no different upwards.

....probably should have been sober when i wrote that

[Muck]

I think equality is unrealistic, but no matter what your circumstance you should have the possibility of achieving your goals. Yes others will always get a leg up one way or another but that’s life, some people are disadvantaged but that doesn’t mean they’re completely blocked.

It’s not like we’re living in a feudal system with lords and peons. The richest guy I know is the son of a working class plumber, he isn’t even very academically skilled but he lives his and works hard for his dreams and he’s a success.

[Dave B]

Having children at a young age out of wedlock is a MUCH stronger indicator of financial success or failure than any race, sex or any other factor.

[Muck]

Agreed, if you can’t work out how to use a condom lettuce washer at Burger King is your ceiling role.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Having children at a young age out of wedlock is a MUCH stronger indicator of financial success or failure than any race, sex or any other factor.

True, but remarkably, several of those variables are correlated.

[Dave B]

They are highly correlated. But these days, I would argue and much evidence shows, that it is much more of a cultural problem than one of discrimination.

If you are working 2 dead end jobs to support 1 or 2 households before you have an education, you arent likely to succeed. If you see that lifestyle as common among your peers, it becomes the norm.

Through anyone of any race, religion or sex into that environment, and the odds are stacked against them.

[UrAteUp]

The thing is you can be lower class but still work to improve or better your life. We have that chance.Each and every person can make that chance for themselves if they want it. You may have to work a McJob but no one says you can not either go back and further your education or improve yourself by rising in the company.

The problem is when we become complacent in life and say this is the way it is going to be and there is nothing I can do about it because I am poor, have 3 kids or have a disability. The thing we must all remember as a society is we can improve.

DC your anology is good, very good in fact. What I was trying to say is this. We know that AA can beat 72o "more then likely". The thing is we can learn not to play 72o into a 10xBB raise and why we shouldn't. It just depends on how much effort we want to put forth to learn.

I was born and raised in poverty. I lived in a small town that had a poor school system. I didn't say "Well that's the way life goes and I am destined to fail or have to work a McJob all my life." I applied myself even at a poor school. I reached outside to learn more and strive to better myself. When I got the chance (because I made the chance) I furthered my education and still worked more then full time.

While in college I saw people who would be considered low class in college striving, pushing and moving themselves forward in an effort to improve their lives and the lives of their children.

The thing is no matter what our class, we all have ways we can improve our lives and better them.