Don't play poker online!

[anothermoron]

interesting thread...the angry fellow admitted cheating as far as i can see. i play fake $ games to practice for real games, so can i assume he colludes in play $ games to practice real $ collusion?

[DDiehr]

First of all, poker is most definitley a skill game. The absurdity of the opposing opinion is too obvious to need an explanation. As far as getting cheated online, it is most certainly possible. I only play the small-limits online to kill time and get put in some practice hours. As far as losing a lot of money in a single day and getting "bad beats." That's really not how a cheater would operate. Team players can't make the computer deal out a person's miracle card. When watching for team play, watch to see if every time a certain player catches a set, another player always helps him build the pot. Also watch to see if two or three players always see the flop together, watch to see if they fold at the same time, watch to see if they constantly back-raise or check-raise each other, also watch to see if you see the same two or three players playing with each other on a consistent bases, or see if they all join or leave the table at the same time.

P.S. To avoid cheats, I like to play single table tourneys at Party Poker. When it's busy, it takes 3 or 4 tries to get into one, there's no way three or even two players could get into the same single table tourney on a regular basis.

[TheRightHand]

What is this "Roger Wilco" to which Zito refers?

[snoogins47]

Roger Wilco is an online voice-chat service, popularized mostly in online FPS and RTS games...

As for cheating... I dunno... it wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think I ever have been worked online like that.

I have heard many claims that online poker rooms are set up for action, though, making it sort of a contrived environment... that also wouldn't surprise me, what with the seemingly insane number of people catching flush or straight draws, the obscene number of times myself and others have flopped top two pair and gotten beaten by a gutshot, etc...

Of course, there's always that factor that online poker moves infinitely quicker than live poker, and people are more willing to call when the money isn't actually in front of them and it's just a little number on a screen... so who knows.

About poker being gambling/skill...

I've got some friends that enjoy playing that think it's purely a game of luck as well.

[TheSportsPredictor]

An admitted cheater goes down $450 and thinks he's being scammed? Geez, dude, learn some things about the ups and downs of gambling.

[ungle brian]

i just read this whole thread because i was interested in playing online poker. then i asked a couple of my friends (computer software writers) if they could make a programe to determine odds on texas holem or whatever and they said they could not only do that but even make a pretictabilaty program of how a person will bet improving with every hand and after like 30 or 40 hands have any of ten or more players fiqured out about 75 percent or better and have him nailed with in 100 hands like 99 percent. given that info im sure there are a lot of people out there who have developet such tools so i have decided not to play online but thats just me thought you would like to know. the 2 guys i talked to right software for a living and who they work for i cant mention. ill stick to real play with people i can see lol

[Golden Holden]

Hey Ungle,

Writing a program to figure players out is harder than you think. First of all, players muck the vast majority of hands they play, so you'll never have most of the info you need to document their play.

Second, this has already been tackled by some of the top researchers in AI and game theory (I'm getting this from McManus' "Positively Fifth Street".

A top notch AI program can figure out average players and beat them most of the time, but a good player is going to beat the pants off them every time. Theres just no way a computer program can adapt to a good bluffer.

[Devedander]

Now everyone is going to say this is just a "my friend" story that I really did, but I honestly have never cheated in any poker game ever. Believe me or not.

I know quite a few people who play poker online, most of whom I referred and colected quite some money for. Anyhow, needless to say a large number of them plain suck. After a few hundred dollars 3 of my friends gave up after being totally sure they were cheated, but being assured that there was no collusion after "extensively" looking into the issue.

If anything this was cheating for sure. These 3 people were on the same table, but at different houses and not cheating (this is before they realized how easy it would be to cheat). I was with one of them at his house watching.

pp single table 10+1. 3 people sitting right next to each other, and my 3 friends at the table somewhat spaced out, the only 3 referred to in this game are the 3 we suspected of cheating. The first one ALWAYs takes all the time and calls the blind or folds at the last second. The other two ALWAYs make their move in just a second or two. Between the 3, there is almost never a time when only one is in on a pot, usually all 3 in. In EVERY case none of the 3 ever called all the way down, but almost always called to the river if there was at least one person in the pot other than those 3. And this is the kicker. One of them lost a connection and was out for over 2 minutes. During this time both one of the suspected cheaters said "what do you mean? this connection is still working" obviously typing into what he though was AIM or some other chat program, but typing it into party. There was no reason for him to say this related to the game. Momentarily the timed out player returned.

I would draw from this that somehow his pp lost the connection but his chat still worked and they were trying to figure out why.

During the final 20 minutes of this game there were phone calls being made between us and cries of dissbelief. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt but even I could not hold back my suspicion by the end of this.

So what are the chances 3 friends are going to play a friendly game on a table with 3 cheaters? Not so high, but it did happen this time. It was blatant, and party denied it.

They were angry and so decided since they were pulling out they would "test" the cheat system. Being new they had almost always played by the books, raising strong hands, folding weak etc. So collusion shoud have stuck out easily right?

During now all from sepearte IPs, one of whom was 50 miles away, they sat down to another 10+1 and proceded to share hands and alter play significantly. At one point one of them even folded a k high flush to the ace high flush at the turn when all four cards had come hearts. The pot was huge and teh call would have been about 1/15th the pot. No one woud have folded that.

Never did PP ever contact them or say anything. They proceeded to clean up first and second (with one guy donating his chips and going out) and never heard a word from party. To this day their accounts are open but will never be used again.

So maybe they check more at higher levels, but even blatant cheating can go through. Personally I am a VERY tight player at times, and VERY lose at others (depends on how good whatever is on TV is mostly) and my friends constantly yell at me for folding jj in the face of 2 all ins and the such. If you saw my hands, you would almost be sure I knew I was up against qq and aa.

Take what you will from this. I DO still play at UB, not becaues I feel it's safer, but because I have not seen such blatant cheating that I could detect, and I win regularly enough that if I am being cheated, it's only hurting the pocket a little.

I am not saying I believe zito, he sure didn't provide enough details to make me believe, but I do think you should keep in mind taht people are almost certainly cheating out there. Maybe not doing it well, but still...

And I am interested in any stories where someone actually got confirmed report of a cheater. I haven't been to this forum for quite a while (money dried up, no poker, no need for poker forum) and maybe I missed a few posts where that happened, but bertween everyone on this forum, and the fact atht most seem to know what to look for in online cheaters, who has actually reported on, and had the report come back "collusion detected"? Because I garuantee there is no poker site out there with 0% cheaters.

[JohnnyCache]

Remove my information from your site. I do not wish to be any part of a CENSORED FORUM. Afterall, this type of talk is not good for your advertising revenues.

Continue your online casino ass kissing without my honest input.

A couple quick things:

1) You need to chill. Period. Right now you are that guy who's pissed off because he lost. We've all been that guy, and we've all said some stuff we shouldn't have because we just needed to chill. That's no call to lay into all the people here, none of whom are the possible cheats in question or the people you lost too. If all the random poker players here seem to feel you are incorrect, EVALUATE THEIR POINTS. If you have already made your decision and are just trying to get a last word in or start a fight, don't waste our time. That's just internet manners, period . . . poker or no poker.

2) Cheating online is possible. Collusion is certainly possible. It's possible in a 'real' casino too. There are probably more cheaters online . . . because there are a ton more players online . . . can 30,000 people even fit in the Mirage poker room? Is it more by percentage? I doubt it. The know-how and time is probably just as intensive to cheat one was as the other. . . what were the blinds at your table? How many hands would your cheaters have to win to pay off a number of extra computers, connections, and ISPs?

3) Look at the things you don't have to worry about - "slight of hand" type cheating is impossible, chip miscounting is impossible, failing to notice when people raise or fold whithout verbalizing is impossible . . . you can use charts, keep notes and histories, play multiple hands. . .

4)Why would the house cheat? They don't care who wins or loses as long as the hand gets raked! (Or in a tournament, they pay the money to WHOEVER wins) . . . the only thing they might set things up to do is keep people in a hand, but then, by definition, you wouldn't want the system to favor anyone specific . . .

5) You haven't been censored . . . you've been disagreed with. If carson wanted, he could replace your post with you saying, "Guys, I think it's time to stop lying to myself and move to Frisco, open a salon." (<makes seinfeld voice>not that there's anything wrong with that). He could remove the whole topic without explanation if he wanted. So . . . see point number one.

6) Poker is skill based. That's a fact. That doesn't mean it's safe or consistent . . . boxing is skill based, and you can be second best in the world and still take a beating!

I have to say, Zito, you are rude and immature, and I have to wonder if you would act this churlish if you had to stand face to face with the men you are berating. . . if you would, your friends are probably drawn from a pool of insincere people! You've become defensive and combative, and you are probably asking yourself, "Why is everyone attacking me?" With no ablity to remove yourself from the dialouge and analyse what you are being told, you will never answer that question in anything but a self-serving manner.

Davedander, it sounds like you encountered some cheats . . . time to change tables! It's happened to me in real life before, (I detected that two players in a home game were colluding by opening/betting for certain slighly odd amounts when one of them had a strong pocket hand) but not online. . . of course, I haven't started playing for money online yet. . .collusion detection, like any other automated system, is going to take a while to gather data, and it's going to HOG server time, if it's coded like I imagine, so it probably randomly scans winning money players periodically . . . server time equals money after all, and if I ran a poker site, it would be tempting to excluding play and low limit/low blind tables from the scanning. . .

I haven't yet made a technical study of how online poker sights are rigged up from and IT perspective, so I don't know if I could comment on how possible it is to cheat at them . . . but I know I've already been contacted by UB and Netteller security, when someone was abusive toward me in chat and when someone tried to log into my account from a different state, respectively, so I know they aren't completely lax. . .and they've generally been positve to deal with. . .

whew. . . that's a mouthful from the usually quiet man in #000000 . . . I'm gonna stifle my talkin' hole now. . .