Don't You Hate It...

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

When you river a great card but your opponent has like the most concealed cooler ever?

*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO [Kh]
Dealt to Jackson35 [3d]
Dealt to melmet [4h]
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [Kc Jc Js]
Dealt to dayn_1 [2h]
Dealt to CDPatterson [3s]
Dealt to quadandhamm0 [9h]
Dealt to erfigo [3h]
dayn_1: brings-in low $2
CDPatterson: folds
quadandhamm0: folds
erfigo: folds
GOCUBSGO: folds
Jackson35: folds
melmet: calls $2
Turn_Prophet: raises $3 to $5
dayn_1: folds
melmet: calls $3
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to melmet [4h] [Qd]
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [Kc Jc Js] [Td]
melmet: checks
Turn_Prophet: bets $5
melmet: calls $5
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to melmet [4h Qd] [5c]
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [Kc Jc Js Td] [Ah]
Turn_Prophet: bets $10
melmet: calls $10
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to melmet [4h Qd 5c] [2s]
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [Kc Jc Js Td Ah] [6h]
Turn_Prophet: bets $10
melmet: calls $10
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [Kc Jc Js Td Ah 6h] [Qh]
Turn_Prophet: bets $10
melmet: raises $10 to $20
Turn_Prophet: raises $10 to $30
melmet: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
Turn_Prophet: calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
melmet: shows [4s 5h 4h Qd 5c 2s 5s] (a full house, Fives full of Fours)
Turn_Prophet: mucks hand


If I hadn't hit that Queen I would have lost only one more bet, and I probably would have just check/called the river.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Again....

*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO [Qs]
Dealt to Jackson35 [5c]
Dealt to melmet [9h]
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [8h Js Jd]
Dealt to dayn_1 [2s]
Dealt to quadandhamm0 [7d]
Dealt to erfigo [5d]
dayn_1: brings-in low $2
quadandhamm0: folds
erfigo: calls $2
Wakeupdog joins the table at seat #6
GOCUBSGO: calls $2
Jackson35: calls $2
melmet: calls $2
Turn_Prophet: calls $2
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO [Qs] [2d]
Dealt to Jackson35 [5c] [Tc]
Dealt to melmet [9h] [Td]
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [8h Js Jd] [2c]
Dealt to dayn_1 [2s] [Ah]
Dealt to erfigo [5d] [Kd]
dayn_1: checks
erfigo: checks
GOCUBSGO: checks
Jackson35: checks
melmet: checks
Turn_Prophet: bets $5
dayn_1: folds
erfigo: calls $5
GOCUBSGO: calls $5
Jackson35: calls $5
melmet: calls $5
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO [Qs 2d] [9s]
Dealt to Jackson35 [5c Tc] [5h]
Dealt to melmet [9h Td] [8s]
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [8h Js Jd 2c] [8c]
Dealt to erfigo [5d Kd] [4s]
Jackson35: bets $10
melmet: calls $10
Turn_Prophet: calls $10
erfigo: folds
GOCUBSGO: calls $10
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO [Qs 2d 9s] [3c]
Dealt to Jackson35 [5c Tc 5h] [2h]
Dealt to melmet [9h Td 8s] [5s]
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [8h Js Jd 2c 8c] [7s]
Jackson35: checks
melmet: checks
Turn_Prophet: bets $10
GOCUBSGO: calls $10
Jackson35: folds
melmet: calls $10
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Turn_Prophet [8h Js Jd 2c 8c 7s] [Ad]
GOCUBSGO: checks
melmet: checks
Turn_Prophet: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GOCUBSGO: shows [Kh Kc Qs 2d 9s 3c 3h] (two pair, Kings and Threes)
melmet: mucks hand
Turn_Prophet: mucks hand


How he not protect that hand? Feels so silly to lose to someone who had a good hand but played it so retardedly...


EDIT: -51 BB in two days BAAAADDD... that is one of the worst runs of luck I've ever had in Limit.

[kainARGH]

first ones tough , I would have happily capped it looking at the villans showing cards.

[Dat_Dude]

First one I would have put him on the wheel on 6th street, so I for sure would be capping that action on the river with Broadway.

Second hand was played horribly by your opponent. Pocket Kings should be in there raising 3rd Street and betting 4th Street.

[flafishy]

EDIT: -51 BB in two days BAAAADDD... that is one of the worst runs of luck I've ever had in Limit.

Keep on playing. That'll happen quite often. I've had worse two-day runs many times.

Not a hell of a lot pisses me off more than some idiot slowplaying/check-calling huge pockets in 7-card Stud and having them hold up by hitting a second pair on the river. They deserve to die for that.

I don't mind if they're betting them out and then nail the second pair on the river, as most of the time, they deserve to beat me when I'm on a donk chase.

[BeerWench13]

First one I would have put him on the wheel on 6th street, so I for sure would be capping that action on the river with Broadway.

Second hand was played horribly by your opponent. Pocket Kings should be in there raising 3rd Street and betting 4th Street.

Get out of my brain, man! This is almost word-for-word what I was going to post.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

The second hand I'm not sure I played especially well. Calling on 3rd Street was pretty much automatic... I was last to act, getting huge odds, and only one overcard to my pair was out. If I had raised (which wouldn't have been a good play either), maybe the Kings would have re-raised and I could have got out, but as it stood, it looked like I was up against nothing. I still cannot believe he would not raise with buried Kings on 3rd street... he was extremely fortunate he didn't get killed later in the hand.

Betting 4th Street was my biggest mistake in the hand. Given my position, it was unlikely I would get anyone out, and a lot of overs came to the Jacks... if I had waited to bet until 5th street, I might have denied some drawing hands their odds, but betting here was definitely not a good move on my part, because all it did was inflate a pot in which I didn't have much equity.

Also, by betting 4th street, I made further mistakes by calling down on 5th street and beyond. I was reasonably sure the bettor hadn't made three 5's, but if I hadn't bet 4th street, I could have laid down a loser right here and only wasted $2.

At least I checked the river... but yeah, definitely not my finest moment.

[Dat_Dude]

First one I would have put him on the wheel on 6th street, so I for sure would be capping that action on the river with Broadway.

Second hand was played horribly by your opponent. Pocket Kings should be in there raising 3rd Street and betting 4th Street.

Get out of my brain, man! This is almost word-for-word what I was going to post.

Oh, being in your head isn't all that bad, is it? Just don't tell hubby and for SURE don't start yelling out "Dat Dude" when you guys are making whoopie.

[Sean_in_NJ]

...making whoopie.

What are you, 60?

Are you auditioning for host of the next incarnation of "The Newlywed Game?"

[Dat_Dude]

...making whoopie.

What are you, 60?

Are you auditioning for host of the next incarnation of "The Newlywed Game?"

27, but thanks for asking. Maybe I will edit the post and change it to "bumping uglies".

[flafishy]

Betting 4th Street was my biggest mistake in the hand. Given my position, it was unlikely I would get anyone out, and a lot of overs came to the Jacks... if I had waited to bet until 5th street, I might have denied some drawing hands their odds, but betting here was definitely not a good move on my part, because all it did was inflate a pot in which I didn't have much equity.

I really think your biggest mistake was not raising 3rd. Why call here? You might not thin the field with a 3rd-street raise since you're last to act, but you certainly would push out many if not all of them with the bet on 4th after having raised 3rd. That would put you in much better position and give you a clearer idea heading into the big-bet streets.

I'm a tight player, tighter than most at these limits. I'll fold a gazillion hands on third street that most people would play. But when I decide to play a hand, I'll be aggressive as hell on 3rd and 4th just to find out where I stand and to make the marginal hands pay to play.

I definitely would have played this hand, and I definitely would have raised 3rd and bet 4th. My guess is that in this hand, that would have gotten rid of erfigo and possibly jackson and/or melmet and may have forced GOCUBSGO out of the weeds. But no matter what, at least on fifth street I would have had a better read on what other hands might be out there.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

The problem with raising third street is that I simply don't have a good enough hand to raise for value, and given the dead money in the pot, I don't think a raise here does anything but make further calls more correct (or "less incorrect" to use somewhat poor English) for the other players in the pot (Sklansky talks about a similar concept in his writings on Razz, and mentions it in both the 7-Stud and Hold'em books). Unless I hit a Jack or an 8 on 4th street, I'm not looking to play a big pot with this hand, but it looks like I did anyway. The other advantage of not raising on 3rd is it conceals my hand by making it look like a 3-straight or 3-flush, so if I catch an open pair of Jacks, people may not take me for trips immediately. Notice if my hand were instead KJJ or AJJ, I could justify raising for value, but not with JJ8.

[flafishy]

I have played stud with Erik Seidel over at FTP a few times, and he has said several times there that if any hand worth playing on third street is worth raising -- and, conversely, any hand not worth raising is not work playing.

I certainly think that applies here. If you don't think the hand is good enough to raise with in this situation, why play it? Fold it and wait for a better hand.

I think either way is fine. But by just calling, you've put yourself in a situation when you're chasing something that you don't have a clue what it might be that you're chasing.

[snoogins47]

I was trying to write a detailed post about a concept, but it was quickly turning into a sprawling, unfocused rant.

Fla: Not like I'm one to disagree with Erik Seidel on his observations on poker... but I think that the emphasis of his 'rule' is to further the "tight-aggressive" mentality, not necessarily to say that we must raise every hand we play past 3rd regardless of the situation.

Basically, I won't argue about whether raising is right here, because I haven't come to a concrete conclusion myself. But could you elaborate on why folding would be superior to calling? More specifically, what exactly do you mean by

you've put yourself in a situation when you're chasing something that you don't have a clue what it might be that you're chasing.

and how does this concept change when we call, instead of raise?

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

I agree with Snoogins here... I know what Seidel is trying to say, but 7-Stud is too complicated a game for such a general statement. There are a lot of situations where limping in is warranted, and I think this is one of them... I don't thin I played it very well after 3rd street, but I think that was the correct decision.