Donkey Call or Legit?

[MrDarling]

Comeon, seriously. do you really think any one here said that putting all the money in when you are in front is bad?

Putting all the money in on a draw is correct sometimes. Especially if you are the one pushing and not calling.

Now if you are so afraid of playing AK, don't make any raise. By min raising all you did is bloat a pot you'd be playing OOP the all hand.

Sometimes, especially early on tournaments, I do not mind just calling a raise with AK, or even just limping. However you have to be real good post flop if you do this, since if you do run into 2 pairs/sets or better it will be much harder for you to get away sice your hand will be under rep.

[Sentinel]

Comeon, seriously. do you really think any one here said that putting all the money in when you are in front is bad?

No, not at all. I am just curious as to whether you all thought the guy's A6 play was legit/good? Even though I made the mistake in min raising, I still think A6 sucked for obvious reasons. I personally think calling the 1500 on the flop was bad considering he didnt have even the lowest of implied odds. And I certainly think the all in on the turn was bad. 8 people had folded and the chance would be high that they held spades and so it's doubful that even the maximum of 1/6 was not possible.

But that is me. I am not an expert. This could be perfectly understandable in an MTT setting. That is all I am trying to figure out and to better my understanding.

[UrAteUp]

8 people had folded and the chance would be high that they held spades and so it's doubful that even the maximum of 1/6 was not possible.

You can't figure odds on the assumption that some of your outs are burned in others hands. We do not have this information therefore we can not add it to the equation. So we have to figure we have at least 9 outs 13-4= 9, btw I am not laying this out because I think your stupid. I am laying this out because some people here think I need to take more time to read a situation before I reply.. )


So put yourself in villians shoes here...you have a 4 flush after the flop. The odds of hitting one more card to make your flush on either the turn or river are almost 35% or 1:5.

What would you do?

[supafrey]

On the subject of KA, I know it's a monster, but it's still just ace high and there are situations where I am not prepared to risk 3/4 of my stack with it. Ditto when there is a reraise and a call behind me. In the BB, I am not going to be calling pre flop all ins, as many do, and nor am I going to stick with it until showdown if I miss the flop and am facing action.

None of these scenarios happened. What did happen is that you did a horrible play that put you in a horrible situation.

If you're asking basic math questions, you're gonna get basic math answers about pot odds, etc. If you're looking for some super nuanced understanding of when "pot odds say it's bad, but I should still call because otherwise i'll be ineffective in this tournament and on the slim chance I win i think i can take this whole thing down..." that's different. With several hundreds of people left in a tournament, this will never, ever happen. Ever?

[Sentinel]

The odds of hitting one more card to make your flush on either the turn or river are almost 35% or 1:5

UrAteUp,

I know we can't assume any spades have been burned. Leaving 9 available spades then there is a 19% chance to hit a spade on the next card - approx 1/6. As villain only had the river to come, then he had, at the most, a 1/6 to make the flush.

Even going all in on the flop, only gave him a 36% chance, losing 2 out of 3. I don't think that's good play, personally, especially considering he is covered.



Supafrey, quite simply I am asking, based on the flop, and the betting on the flop and after it, whether villain made a bad play in persevering with his A6. First by calling a 3/4 pot bet and then by calling the all in. Especially so early in the tourney.

I *know* my pre flop play was bad. I just need confirmation onthe quality of villain's play. Thx.

[Jauron]

Why do you bother asking the question if you already made up your mind? The more you argue in this thread the more you show how little you understand about the game. If I was in your spot I'd like to think I'd shut up and listen to the advise of people like DC, MrD, and Supa instead of giving a shit about who played the hand worse.

Your questions have been answered already it's not our fault you can't accept them. You should just start naming your threads "I'd like to argue about shit I don't understand" and save us all some time.

[Sentinel]

FFS! I am NOT arguing! But I am damn pissed now!

I have quite politely, asked my question - and politley explained why throughout this thread, with no reply, and then I read your arsey response. Which, by the way, IS arguing. IS aggressive and IS confrontational. How ironic.

If anyone has answered MY question then by all means POINT it out 'cos I sure as hell cannot see it!

And I HAVEN'T made my mind up at all! If I HAD made my mind up, I wouldn't keep asking the SAME DAMN QUESTION! But by ALL means, QUOTE me and PROVE that I think I have made up my mind! You're quick to ACCUSE so back it up!


It appeared that UrAteUp thought villain had both turn and river to come and so all I did was make it clear that he did not. That is NOT arguing nor showing I have made my mind up!

Yes, I messed up pre flop. I knew that before I even posted. Being told so (which is the ONLY feedback given so far) is not addressing the more pertinent aspects of my thread - namely my play post flop and villain's play. It may NOT be important to you, but it IS important to me, to be able to ajudge plays accurately, to better my knowledge, and so it IS important to me to know if villain made a legit play in continuing to call the bets with just a flush draw.

And it doesn't matter if others think it isn't important, I do and I asked, politely, a simple question. To have it ignored, or deemed it negligible is beside the point. And as stated, it IS important for MY knowledge of the game.


Finally: The more you argue in this thread the more you show how little you understand about the game

And the more you think I am arguing the more you show a complete lack of comprehension of basic English. And yes, I know very little in the grand scheme of things - WHICH IS WHY I WANT TO KNOW IF HE PLAYED CORRECTLY! I think he did not - but I could be WRONG - ergo this f**king thread!

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

No, he didn't play correctly, but he didn't play it terribly either because you never put him to a hard decision.

You MUST immediately put away the thought, "AK is just Ace high, and I don't want to risk a lot with it." This is completely the wrong way to think about your hand. Your hand is just a number between 0 and 1 that corresponds to equity, and your hand is a favorite over almost every other hand.

The way your opponent should have played the hand would have been to shove all-in on the flop, and to answer your question, yes that is a semi-bluff. But from his perspective, he probably thinks he has 12 outs, and you might fold here as well. Calling on the villain's part is terrible, because if you bet the turn, he loses almost all chance that you will fold your hand, and a good share of his chance to win the pot is lost. But as it stands, he has closer to a 1-in-5, not 1-in-6, shot of hitting his flush, and he is pretty much pot-committed at this point.

What YOU should have done was to reraise preflop, probably to about 1500, but it depends slightly on the villain's stacks. What we were saying here is that reraising preflop makes your subsequent decisions much easier.

[MrDarling]

Am trying to understand why you are so obsessed with this hand and villain play, and just passingly defend your HUGE PF mistake.

From the information you didn't provide us its pretty clear you still miss some basic understanding of the game (no offense, we've all been there)

To completely judge villain's play we will need to know his position, table dynamic, your image, stack sizes etc...

Villain's PF limp was very bad. With 14BB you shouldn't be limping with any hand, especially not Ax
Villain's call of your raise is very good, as he was getting excellent odds.
Villain's call on the flop is very bad, giving his stack size. Pushing could have been ok. He has 9 outs for the nuts + possible 3 outs for TP. Which means he could be around 48% favorite. Add to this fold equity and its a good move (He doesn't know you have a K, you could have QQ or JJ and might fold to his push)
Its very important to know if you have any FE.

Turns is iffy at best, though he had to call; getting around 1-3.5 . If he still have 12 outs it almost enough, especially there is always a chance his A high is good (small chance, but its there) BTW, would have been a much better turn call if he had A5 or A4. Tell me why?

Funny, we all gave you good explanations of why and where you made mistakes but all you really want to hear is : Yes, villain is a Donky!

You want to know something more confusing, if you played this hand perfectly, you would have still lost a very big pot.

[Sentinel]

Thx for the replies. Contrary to popular belief, I did not just want to hear villain was a donkey. I understand my pf raise was terirble. I haven't focussed on it as I know it fully.

I also understand that villain would have been correct, in order to salvage the hand, to push over the top.

And I am happy to get confirmation that he played it poorly. Just as I did.


Of course I have plenty to learn (which is why I was keen to get a handle on the play of this hand) but not sure what it is I have left out to give you that idea, MrDarling.

Diamond, I know KA is a monster, I just feel that too many overrate it and will go all in over a raise and a reraise. Having said that, I accept and understand I did it no favours by min raising (which was borne about by QA the previous hand, betting large and getting beat, losing a good 1/3 of my stack). I guess I was just cautious as I was now getting short.

You want to know something more confusing, if you played this hand perfectly, you would have still lost a very big pot

.
Why? Is it because you think he married his hand pre flop?