Donkey Call or Legit?

[Sentinel]

800 runner MTT. Blinds 150/300

Player 1 has KA, raises pre flop. Player 2 calls.
Flop comes Kd 3s 8s.
Player 1 bets 1500. Player 2 calls.
Turn is 2d.
Sensing a draw, player 1 moves all in for 6000. Player 2, with 2200 left, moves all in too.

Long story short, the river is the 10s to make the flush for player 2 but player 2 didn't have pot or implied odds to call the turn bet so was it donkey play by him to go all in on a 1/6 shot or was it understandable and acceptable play?

[Jauron]

You've withheld so much information I don't know how anyone is going to be able to answer that.

Starting stacks, preflop action. Player 2 actual cards as he may have had more than just a flush draw.

[Sentinel]

Blinds 150/300.

Hero stack – 8520
Villain stack – 4655

Villain and other call 300 from UTG + 2 & UTG + 4. All else fold.
Hero, with KA, raises from BB to 600. Both call.

Flop Kd 3s 8s. Hero bets 1500 into pot of 1950. Villain calls. Other folds.
Turn 2d. Hero moves all in for 6120. Villain calls 2255 and is all in. Villain flips over As 6s.
River 10s gives villain the flush.

Hero returned 3865 (approx 12bb).

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Terrible preflop bet. I raise to at least 1500.

Once the flop hits, you are committed.

If you're being honest, you got your money in with way the best of it. I don't really think you think you did anything wrong here.

Villain should have pushed the flop. As it is, he had to call the turn even if he has only 9 outs because of the pot odds, but I am not a fan of villain flat-calling the flop. In every other regard, he took full advantage of the mistakes you made in this hand.

[Jauron]

Preflop is bad, very bad by #1. There is no reason to mini raise in that spot. Mini raising with AK is probably bad in almost all spots.


#2 has over half his chips in the pot by the turn, if I found myself in this spot I'm probably not folding the nut draw and could sometimes assume my A is good as well. With 12 outs I'm still taking the worst of it here but folding hurts too much and I'm not drawing dead.


I'm with DC though, C/R on the flop from #2 would be better than a call.

#1 needs to make a strong raise with the limping going on. If both stacks have around 4K to my 8K I probably just push it in. I'm OOP with a strong hand, I have limpers in my BB, I can't raise to say 1800 and not push the flop anyways. If one or more is deep I may still push, depends on the players involved a bit.

[supafrey]

Raise preflop to 1500 or something

[Sentinel]

Thx.

I have no idea why I just minraised pre flop. No idea at all and accept criticism for that.

Villain should have pushed the flop
Which would be a semi bluff on his part, correct? And this would be a legit play even with a 3/4 pot bet out there?

he had to call the turn even if he has only 9 outs because of the pot odds
Can you explain where he had pot odds. He was going all in for just a 1/6 shot - or do you mean 'cause he's pot committed with 1/2 his stack in already.

he took full advantage of the mistakes you made in this hand
Apart from the pre flop raise, what were they?


I'm with DC though, C/R on the flop from #2
Considering the 3/4 pot bet, how can it ever be good to push all in, on a draw, against an opponent who has you covered? I don't understand.

1 needs to make a strong raise with the limping going on. If both stacks have around 4K to my 8K I probably just push it in. I'm OOP with a strong hand
Do you mean shove all in pre flop? I know AK is good, but not *that* good and I didn't want to run into pockets, which has happened when I've gone all Rambo with KA, let alone KK or AA. Personally, I felt stacked enough to c bet the flop but let go if it was blank. Was this wrong?

Thx

[supafrey]

Thx.

I have no idea why I just minraised pre flop. No idea at all and accept criticism for that.

Villain should have pushed the flop
Which would be a semi bluff on his part, correct? And this would be a legit play even with a 3/4 pot bet out there?

he had to call the turn even if he has only 9 outs because of the pot odds
Can you explain where he had pot odds. He was going all in for just a 1/6 shot - or do you mean 'cause he's pot committed with 1/2 his stack in already.

he took full advantage of the mistakes you made in this hand
Apart from the pre flop raise, what were they?


I'm with DC though, C/R on the flop from #2
Considering the 3/4 pot bet, how can it ever be good to push all in, on a draw, against an opponent who has you covered? I don't understand.

1 needs to make a strong raise with the limping going on. If both stacks have around 4K to my 8K I probably just push it in. I'm OOP with a strong hand
Do you mean shove all in pre flop? I know AK is good, but not *that* good and I didn't want to run into pockets, which has happened when I've gone all Rambo with KA, let alone KK or AA. Personally, I felt stacked enough to c bet the flop but let go if it was blank. Was this wrong?

Thx

blablablablabla

you wouldn't be in these crappy situations if you raised preflop to 1500. All this advice is assuming you're already in a horrible situation. Don't get into it in the first place.

[tame_deuces]

AK rules. When you get AK you should think 'weeeeh! Monster, time to pay suckahs!', not 'I need to see a flop cheaply and decide from there'.

[MrDarling]

Does it really matter if villain made a correct move or not?
Lets hope not, we want our opponent to keep making bad calls, to keep chasing without odds etc..

All we SHOULD do is try to find any error in our play and correct those.

Poker is gambling, in while gambling you need to remember that even if you get your money in as 10 to 1 favorite you'd still lose sometimes.

[PokerGoddessAndHSmom]

Putting aside the modest and ineffective pf raise....

No. I don't *personally* call an all in that puts me all in on a draw. On a made hand that I suspect may/may not be best hand, probably. But not a draw.

[Jauron]

The check/raise on the flop is to maximize FE. Moving in as a semi-bluff isn't bad so long as you don't suspect they have a big hand. Consider the hand required to call the all in. Even if they do have a hand they are willing to call the AI with you have outs.


1500 preflop probably works most of the time to take down the pot, the times it doesn't I hope you have a plan if you miss the flop and now have to act first.

[supafrey]

The check/raise on the flop is to maximize FE. Moving in as a semi-bluff isn't bad so long as you don't suspect they have a big hand. Consider the hand required to call the all in. Even if they do have a hand they are willing to call the AI with you have outs.


1500 preflop probably works most of the time to take down the pot, the times it doesn't I hope you have a plan if you miss the flop and now have to act first.

Bet? It's not hard.

[Felting]

AK rules. When you get AK you should think 'weeeeh! Monster, time to pay suckahs!', not 'I need to see a flop cheaply and decide from there'.

I agree. It's a huge dog to only Ace's, a dog to K's, and a coin flip to all other pairs. After that it's ahead of all other hands, esp. weak Ace's that most players seem to over value.

[Sentinel]

Supafrey and MrDarling,

It is important and not "blablabla" as I need to know for my own benefit and understanding of the game. Of course I want bad players to make bad mistakes - but I need to know if it is bad in the first place. if not, then I need to adjust my thinking - as I have recently had to do concerning implied odds.

After all, if it's a perfectly legit move to go all in on a draw with just one card to come - and you kow your bigger stacked opponent has a big piece already - then:
a) Maybe I need to be following suit when I have a draw and
b) I should stop going all in to maximise/protect my hand.


And though you are correct in fixing flaws in our own game, I feel it is essential to know what is good/bad play on the whole. So if I lose, I can be sure that I played the hand as good as I can (but lost to a donkey) or not. It's not going to be good for my game if I am unsure as to whether the play by me, or my opponent, was good or not.



On the subject of KA, I know it's a monster, but it's still just ace high and there are situations where I am not prepared to risk 3/4 of my stack with it. Ditto when there is a reraise and a call behind me. In the BB, I am not going to be calling pre flop all ins, as many do, and nor am I going to stick with it until showdown if I miss the flop and am facing action.