f**cking, take a look please :) omaha hi/lo

[kainARGH]

I was doing so good , this one guy kept rivering a low on me when I floped a near unbeatable high. I even flopped 3 pair go all in by the turn , got called by 2 people. If the low didnt fall on the river would have trippled up. 2 pair was good but I even boated the turn. but oh well, was definatly fun.

omaha 8 hi/lo


then I came upon this hand.

Now my all in is debatable , but I ( correctly ) assumed one thing , my Low was drawing to the nuts VS the OR. Thoughts? I really think I wanna play omaha 8 hi lo some more.

*edit* one last thing , I also at the time ( though I couldnt be 100% sure ) deduced my Ace and King would give me bigger two pair , I wasnt thinking he had a set though I could have been wrong , was also putting my flush draw as being to the best high. backdoor str8 draw maybe. I dunno , I was likeing my spot.




Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #31221064-1888 at Pinole (Pot Limit Omaha 8/b)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 22/Apr/06 01:05:49

CallFactory is at seat 0 with $1.68.
Garbonzo is at seat 2 with $13.54.
gotthejack is at seat 3 with $.70.
card shark47 is at seat 4 with $1.08.
don_texas47 is at seat 6 with $0 (sitting out).
Aces_2_Win is at seat 7 with $6.25.
16Chips is at seat 8 with $4.26.
Vengier is at seat 9 with $2.87.
The button is at seat 0.

Garbonzo posts the small blind of $.01.
gotthejack posts the big blind of $.02.

CallFactory: 7d Kh Td Ah
Garbonzo: -- -- -- --
gotthejack: -- -- -- --
card shark47: -- -- -- --
Aces_2_Win: -- -- -- --
16Chips: -- -- -- --
Vengier: -- -- -- --

Pre-flop:

card shark47 folds. Aces_2_Win folds. 16Chips
calls. Vengier calls. CallFactory raises to $.11.
Garbonzo folds. gotthejack calls. 16Chips calls.
Vengier calls.

Flop (board: Ts 9d 4d):

gotthejack checks. 16Chips checks. Vengier bets
$.45. CallFactory goes all-in for $1.57. gotthejack
goes all-in for $.59. 16Chips folds. Vengier calls.


Turn (board: Ts 9d 4d 9c):

(no action in this round)


River (board: Ts 9d 4d 9c Ad):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

CallFactory shows 7d Kh Td Ah.
CallFactory has 7d Td 9d 4d Ad: flush, ace high (high).
CallFactory has no qualifying low hand.
gotthejack shows Tc 2d Kd Qc.
gotthejack has 2d Kd 9d 4d Ad: flush, ace/king high (high).
gotthejack has no qualifying low hand.
Vengier shows 3s 9h Th Jh.
Vengier has 9h Th Ts 9d 9c: full house, nines full of tens (high).
Vengier has no qualifying low hand.


Hand #31221064-1888 Summary:

$.15 is raked from a total pot of $4.18.
$.10 is raked from the main pot of $2.22.
$.05 is raked from side pot #1 of $1.96.
Vengier wins the main pot $2.12 with full house, nines full of tens.
Vengier wins the side pot $1.91 with full house, nines full of tens.
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #31221064-1888 at Pinole (Pot Limit Omaha 8/b)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 22/Apr/06 01:05:49

CallFactory is at seat 0 with $1.68.
Garbonzo is at seat 2 with $13.54.
gotthejack is at seat 3 with $.70.
card shark47 is at seat 4 with $1.08.
don_texas47 is at seat 6 with $0 (sitting out).
Aces_2_Win is at seat 7 with $6.25.
16Chips is at seat 8 with $4.26.
Vengier is at seat 9 with $2.87.
The button is at seat 0.

Garbonzo posts the small blind of $.01.
gotthejack posts the big blind of $.02.

CallFactory: 7d Kh Td Ah
Garbonzo: -- -- -- --
gotthejack: -- -- -- --
card shark47: -- -- -- --
Aces_2_Win: -- -- -- --
16Chips: -- -- -- --
Vengier: -- -- -- --

Pre-flop:

card shark47 folds. Aces_2_Win folds. 16Chips
calls. Vengier calls. CallFactory raises to $.11.
Garbonzo folds. gotthejack calls. 16Chips calls.
Vengier calls.

Flop (board: Ts 9d 4d):

gotthejack checks. 16Chips checks. Vengier bets
$.45. CallFactory goes all-in for $1.57. gotthejack
goes all-in for $.59. 16Chips folds. Vengier calls.


Turn (board: Ts 9d 4d 9c):

(no action in this round)


River (board: Ts 9d 4d 9c Ad):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

CallFactory shows 7d Kh Td Ah.
CallFactory has 7d Td 9d 4d Ad: flush, ace high (high).
CallFactory has no qualifying low hand.
gotthejack shows Tc 2d Kd Qc.
gotthejack has 2d Kd 9d 4d Ad: flush, ace/king high (high).
gotthejack has no qualifying low hand.
Vengier shows 3s 9h Th Jh.
Vengier has 9h Th Ts 9d 9c: full house, nines full of tens (high).
Vengier has no qualifying low hand.


Hand #31221064-1888 Summary:

$.15 is raked from a total pot of $4.18.
$.10 is raked from the main pot of $2.22.
$.05 is raked from side pot #1 of $1.96.
Vengier wins the main pot $2.12 with full house, nines full of tens.
Vengier wins the side pot $1.91 with full house, nines full of tens.
----------------------------------------------------------------

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Personally, I really don't like the way you played that hand. Top pair, top kicker, no real backdoor low, and a weak flush draw. I think you played it far too aggressively.

[snoogins47]

Now my all in is debatable , but I ( correctly ) assumed one thing , my Low was drawing to the nuts VS the OR. Thoughts? I really think I wanna play omaha 8 hi lo some more.

*edit* one last thing , I also at the time ( though I couldnt be 100% sure ) deduced my Ace and King would give me bigger two pair , I wasnt thinking he had a set though I could have been wrong , was also putting my flush draw as being to the best high. backdoor str8 draw maybe. I dunno , I was likeing my spot.

I'm a little confused here. "Your low draw" you reference: well, you happened to be right that it would've been good, but it's to a pretty damn bad low, and, it's backdoor... that's not worth a whole lot. It's a nice little escape hatch, since many people who bet that flop might not have a low at all, but that's very far from always the case.

Part of me hesitates to comment much on this hand, because I'm no expert on O8, and partially because if I can avoid it, I try to avoid gambling large chunks of cash on the early streets in Omaha, when there's a chance every one of my 'escape hatches' is rusted shut. It's obviously not a hard and fast rule, but in the sort of game where big hands pop up all the time, and everybody and their mom has some sort of reason to stay involved on the flop, in pots with a lot of people involved, it's often much better to have a very strong one-way hand, than a hand that has all sorts of junk possibilities both ways (which, incidentally, become much better in very short/heads up spots)

I think that you're often in pretty poor shape against the pot bet on the flop, and while I prefer shoving to calling, I think I'd probably just fold.

I also don't know about the raise preflop. I'm a bit of a nutjob preflop in omaha myself, so I raise a lot more often than I think most people here do... but I think here there's not a whole ton to gain: the only positives really are knocking out the blinds, which doesn't always happen. You're on the button anyway, so you can't really improve your position much, and most importantly, a marginal high-only hand isn't the best of choices if you're going to build a big pot preflop that will tend to be 4 handed or so. Limp it to win it!

[kainARGH]

The preflop raise , I play this game like holdem still , if my competition is really weak. that wasnt explained , as these people were really bad , oddly enough the guy who bet the pot was the only half competant one. I had posistion , had a strong high hand. So by betting that much pre , what it did was give me the power to fire a big bullet on the flop if it should come w/o a low and help my hand.

Now the re-raise , I felt there was a small chance he may fold. small lol. And all i cuold see was chance he folds + my low WILL win me half the pot VS him + potentiolly 15 outs and backdoor str8 potentiol. now i don't know if holdem odds apply to omaha , but 15 outs gives me a > then 50% chance to win this , AND my low can save me if im correct in assuming that my low > his.

granted , if this was for a real amount of money , i wouldnt have played it so aggressivly , but i still see 15 outs + my low > his low + backdoor str8 draw ='ing to money for me in the long run.

the fact there was no low draw actualy made me go for the aggressive play. I felt no one else would call a pot bet then a re-raise the pot bet , and heads up With all my outs I thought it was ok.

Then again , I am definatly not an accomplished omaha 8 hi/lo player

thanks for the replys though guys. its 2 am and i think im rambling.

[BeerWench13]

The preflop raise , I play this game like holdem still , if my competition is really weak. that wasnt explained , as these people were really bad , oddly enough the guy who bet the pot was the only half competant one.

For some reason, this statement stands out to me. When you say you sensed weakness in your opponents, were you referring to their overall play or their cards preflop during this particular hand?

The hand you played, I doubt I would've played at all unless I had a lot of limpers. I generally don't raise preflop without a decent low to go with my high hand.

One thing I have learned in O8 is if the board pairs and there's more than 3 players in the hand, you can pretty much guarantee that someone has a boat. The pot bet on the flop by your opponent, screamed top set.
I'm no expert in O8 as you can see from my other posts, but I think you really overplayed this hand. The best you were drawing for on the flop was a T-high flush and a back door 7 low. I'd fold on the flop to the pot bet.

Listen to Diamond, though. He knows a great deal more about O8 than I probably ever will.

[supafrey]

For O8 standards, your hand, like most, is very mediocre. It's a game of nuts or almost nuts...

Just a little thought experiment: Try to give yourself a random assortment of hands and see whether you'd play that board any different. Lets say you had your opponents hands.. would you feel any worse about your position in the hand?

Tighten up. It's o8.

P.S. Don't get emotionally attached to an omaha table. You'll see suckouts. Like, alot.

[BeerWench13]

Don't get emotionally attached to an omaha table. You'll see suckouts. Like, alot.

Quoted for truth. The more I play this game the more suckouts I seem to take. After a while, it becomes expected, even if you have the nuts on the turn.

[kainARGH]

AKs with 3 cards to a broadway , I felt a solid starting hand to take a flop with at the least. I raised .... As when I have a solid high ahnd with no low hand , I like to raise to A. possibly get people to fold B. if the flop comes without a low right away - and I hit it - I want to make people pay to draw to a low. If the flop came witha Low , I give up on my play , but at this time I saw no Low yet So I made my move.

The reason I tried coming over the top was I suspected haveing 15 outs + backdoor str8 + backdoor low. I suspected my backdoor low was mroe powerful then his - if he even had a low. 15 outs makes me a strong favorit I would think , but yea its omaha - shti happens hehe.

for the record , I wasnt emotionally attached here , hence the smiley face in the topic

@ beerwench , My weak opposition was commented at there overall play. It was .01 .02 lol.


Since this psot , i actually went back to a full table and made 4$ playing pot limit .01 .02 lol. I was playing alot closer to the nuts as many sugested , rather then trying to make strong plays like this at a low limit. worked great.

one hand did stand out from that session though , maybe others would care to comment?

Basically , I had A23 and was massaging the pot pre. no one was getting aggressive , floped 4 to the Nut low with 5 players. kept massaging the pot - when the low hit the river. with 5 of us still left in a sizable pot , first to act bets the pot ( the one obviously playing a strong high hand ) and I re-raise all in for a pot bet over the top.......everyone calls. 4 of us show A2 each lol , one guy hits the high. I ended up loseing a little. My all in was hopeing to fold some - but anyone who calls I dont care as im gonna get half the pot. Was not at all expecting 3 others to share my nut low.

[BeerWench13]

My all in was hopeing to fold some - but anyone who calls I dont care as im gonna get half the pot. Was not at all expecting 3 others to share my nut low.

This happened to me twice last night in a live cash game. The difference is, I wasn't betting the low. There was only one player betting and the rest calling. I should've recognized that they had lows and the bettor had the high hand. I ended up quartering half the pot once and thirding half the pot the other time. I lost a nice chuck each time.

It's not always profitable to play/bet the low. If you get a lot of callers to a big raise, you can usually guess that at least one or two have the nut low or nut low draw.

I hope if this is incorrect, Diamond will correct it (I'm not a great O8 player), but unless there are only 1 or 2 other players in the hand, I usually don't bet my low unless I have a decent high to go with it. If I'm going to build a pot, I want to build one that I can scoop. Thoughts, Diamond?

[snoogins47]

Basically , I had A23 and was massaging the pot pre. no one was getting aggressive , floped 4 to the Nut low with 5 players. kept massaging the pot - when the low hit the river. with 5 of us still left in a sizable pot , first to act bets the pot ( the one obviously playing a strong high hand ) and I re-raise all in for a pot bet over the top.......everyone calls. 4 of us show A2 each lol , one guy hits the high. I ended up loseing a little. My all in was hopeing to fold some - but anyone who calls I dont care as im gonna get half the pot. Was not at all expecting 3 others to share my nut low.

This is pretty bad. You have the nut low, with no high, in a large multiway pot, and you're trying to eliminate players?

Okay, shake your head back and forth real fast, and go "bblblblblblblaaaa." Hopefully that'll clear things up. Now, think about that hand again. Think about a situation where you "know" that everybody except the pot bettor folds, and he calls. Think about how poor your raise is then. Now, look at all the other fun times when somebody has the nut low with you, and you're just throwing money away with your raise.

Generally all this raise does is get rid of hands that you would've rather seen call anyway (Extra Credit: What Hands would you like to get action from? Nobody else answer this.). This sort of move can work well in a heads up pot, when you have no chance at winning the high in a showdown, and very little chance of losing the low.

I play this game like holdem still

Eeek. It's quite a different beast.

[kainARGH]

snoogins47

Okay, shake your head back and forth real fast, and go "bblblblblblblaaaa." Hopefully that'll clear things up. Now, think about that hand again

I won't lie .... I went to lunch shortly after .... thought about the hand ... then thought to myself " wtf was I thinking ? ". I was thinking to hold-em focused , trying to make people fold lol. Ignore that last hand - it was just stupid on my part.


As far as playing omaha like holdem - this is a very specific statement in when I play it similiar to hold-em. In this hand I happened to be playing it similiar to hold-em , as I simply saw it my top pair VS his two pair , then considered all my extra outs VS his potentiol lack of outs.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

I hope if this is incorrect, Diamond will correct it (I'm not a great O8 player), but unless there are only 1 or 2 other players in the hand, I usually don't bet my low unless I have a decent high to go with it. If I'm going to build a pot, I want to build one that I can scoop. Thoughts, Diamond?

Short answer is yes, this is usually correct. When you have the nut low, you are playing for at MOST 1/2 the pot, whereas with the nut high, you are playing for at LEAST 1/2 the pot.

Heads-up, I usually won't raise with the nut low only, unless I have a good re-draw to go with it. If all you have is the low, and your opponent has a high that he is unlikely to fold, raising has almost no value... however, raising may be worth it if you have a redraw for high or you suspect you may put your opponent off a good high hand (which I suspect almost never happens below about the $10/$20 level).

With 2 other players in there, it's circumstantial. If one or both of the players seems weak, you may be able to trap him for bets when you have the nut low and he has a weaker low, or if you have the nut low and a redraw for high. Getting extra bets in there when there are 3 players is definitely worth is if you will win at least half the pot.

So I guess the other short answer is, always bet such that you maximize your EV... so simple, right?