flipping for small stacks...

[Ensano]

since a recent bad run and some cashouts i've been reduced to playing 10NL and while playing these limits i've notice a lot of really short buyins (like <20xbb)... and a thought occured to me...

is 3betting short-stacks preflop profitable?

for example... villian raises first in 4xbb in MP and has 15xbb left behind...

folded to hero in bb with a full stack..

hero ?

[Ensano]

assume villian is unknown... and range could be 22+ any sc.. KJ/KQ and AJ+

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,859,562,144 games 0.005 secs 371,912,428,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.461% 50.85% 00.62% 945501732 11453976.00 { 77 }
Hand 1: 48.539% 47.92% 00.62% 891152460 11453976.00 { 22+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo+, KJo+ }

[Jernej Zorec]

generally id go with 88+ and AJ+ if its unknown and then adjust based on how he plays

[jimmer]

This is a good question. I base my answer around the fact that i assume most players who buy in short stacked are new to the game or simply poor players.

I'm guessing most don't have enough skill to play post flop therefore buying in short reduces their risk.

So, to answer the question; surely these situations are profitable.

[gumbie]

Just reship it with atc. Two good things can happen either you win or they leave.

[Red Rabbit]

assume villian is unknown... and range could be 22+ any sc.. KJ/KQ and AJ+

I'd say that you're pretty much on the money with your range here although I'm not sure I'd include all suited connectors, maybe 89+. There are a few short stackers at this level who are a bit looser but most of the time you'll be up against a pair or two high cards.

If you want to play against the short stacks then you might as well put them all in preflop most of the time. Most will shove all-in after the flop regardless of whether they hit the flop or not, like an extreme cbet I guess.

I play against them the same as I would play in the late stages of a SnG. If you know your shoving ranges then you should be able to play profitably against them.

As gumbie said, you'll either lose and they'll leave because they're too deep or you'll win and they'll either reload or leave.

[kingetje]

generally id go with 88+ and AJ+ if its unknown and then adjust based on how he plays

this is the exact range i had in my head when i read the topic title

[miaowmiaowchowface]

depends on which scumbag, sometimes necessary to establish ranges for the different ones

[Ensano]

shortened ss range by cutting off sc under 67...

added our range of 88+ and AJ+....

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

25,051,007,520 games 0.002 secs 12,525,503,760,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.536% 39.56% 01.97% 9911087748 494048894.00 { 22+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AJo+, KJo+ }
Hand 1: 58.464% 56.49% 01.97% 14151821984 494048894.00 { 88+, AJs+, AJo+ }


so assuming ss has 20xbb and we both get AI pot would be 40bb... out equity is 58.464 so we're +EV but we only stand to win about 23bb

so we're risking 19bb (1 already in for blind) to win 23? is that really worth it?

even if we put our range to AQ+, JJ+ we only get 62% equity or about +7bb...

[miaowmiaowchowface]

you can 3bet super light against BTN openers, the good ones anyway because vs competent players they will open atc, and so it develops from tehre. most good scumbags won't open to 4bb's either.

[PLOCH]

I've noticed this type of player on Full Tilt a lot recently. I call them The $5 Boys or Double Up Dashers (DUDS).
You know what they have 95% of the time and amazingly so many don't recognize this. When they lose they usually reload.
As soon as they double up they dash out. Lately, they have been leaving the site entirely and you can't find them. This has me starting to think something is up.
Plus, they never talk.

[Ensano]

POKERSTARS GAME #19864809963: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/08/24 - 14:46:39 (ET)
Table 'Bitias' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Ensano ($9.85 in chips)
Seat 3: sakicc ($9.35 in chips)
Seat 4: Macieck ($3.90 in chips)
Seat 5: iknoikno ($15 in chips)
Seat 6: schmrom ($1.45 in chips)
Seat 7: joost10 ($1.80 in chips)
Seat 8: *WelderKinG* ($9.85 in chips)
Seat 9: ziver85 ($9.65 in chips)
ziver85: posts small blind $0.05
Ensano: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ensano [Ac Qh]
sakicc: folds
Macieck: folds
iknoikno: folds
schmrom: raises $0.30 to $0.40
joost10: folds
*WelderKinG*: folds
ziver85: calls $0.35
Ensano: raises $1.10 to $1.50
schmrom: calls $1.05 and is all-in
ziver85: folds
Uncalled bet ($0.05) returned to Ensano
*** FLOP *** [Jh 4h 3h]
*** TURN *** [Jh 4h 3h] [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 4h 3h Tc] [7d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ensano: shows [Ac Qh] (high card Ace)
schmrom: shows [Ts Td] (three of a kind, Tens)
schmrom collected $3.15 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.30 | Rake $0.15
Board [Jh 4h 3h Tc 7d]
Seat 1: Ensano (big blind) showed [Ac Qh] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 3: sakicc folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Macieck folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: iknoikno folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: schmrom showed [Ts Td] and won ($3.15) with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 7: joost10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: *WelderKinG* (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ziver85 (small blind) folded before Flop

[Garoen]

PokerStars Game #19867540434: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/08/24 - 16:23:01 (ET)
Table 'Lemaitre' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: 18tcoz18 ($0.76 in chips)
Seat 3: lucanello ($2.44 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero ($5.14 in chips)
Seat 6: Taneli73 ($3.87 in chips)
lucanello: posts small blind $0.01
Hero: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ac Js]
Taneli73: folds
18tcoz18: raises $0.06 to $0.08
lucanello: folds
Hero: raises $0.34 to $0.42
18tcoz18: raises $0.34 to $0.76 and is all-in
Hero: calls $0.34
*** FLOP *** [2s Jc 9d]
*** TURN *** [2s Jc 9d] [3h]
*** RIVER *** [2s Jc 9d 3h] [8h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero: shows [Ac Js] (a pair of Jacks)
18tcoz18: shows [Ah Jd] (a pair of Jacks)
Hero collected $0.74 from pot
18tcoz18 collected $0.74 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.53 | Rake $0.05
Board [2s Jc 9d 3h 8h]
Seat 2: 18tcoz18 (button) showed [Ah Jd] and won ($0.74) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 3: lucanello (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Hero (big blind) showed [Ac Js] and won ($0.74) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: Taneli73 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Red Rabbit]

I've noticed this type of player on Full Tilt a lot recently. I call them The $5 Boys or Double Up Dashers (DUDS).

Do you play 10NL, Ploch? If so I'd say $5 is a deep stack for a lot of the 10NL players on Full Tilt. $2 seems to be the norm.

The deep tables are a god send

[Ensano]

i think he means at the 25NL tables...