Folding a straight on a suited flop

[HalfSugar]

I was playing a live game last night, full table with everyone on roughly the same stack of about 4,000 chips. The blinds were 50/100, I limped with [Kh][Qd] and everyone folded except the blinds.

The flop was [Ac][Jc][Tc].

Both blinds checked and I bet 200. The SB folded and the BB raised to 600. Without hesitation, I folded (face up) figuring that since the turn and river could only make my hand worse, if I call here, I'm committing myself to calling any turn/river bet, or folding to the same bet and wasting the chips that I called on the flop.

Turns out that the guy had A5 no club but I would still consider it a good fold. Thoughts?

[MrDarling]

I doubt I can find a fold so quickly without huge reads.

Depends on mood, my image, villain and table dynamic I either call or raise.

Calling looks really strong, so you either have a biggish club (Kcxo),the nuts or at least a strong A.
Unless villain is a maniac it will be very hard to him to fire a big turn bet without the flush.

And if you do decide to fold, don't show. Any thinking player will know you can make big folds and should be attacking you a lot.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Shove or fold. Don't call. I prefer a shove.

[Felting]

That's the problem with limping. If I'm going to play KQ it's going to be for a 3xbb to 5xbb raise, especially first in the pot. Probably would have taken the blinds preflop. If not cbet 1/2 to 3/4 the pot and if that don't get it done, let the hand go.

edit: after reading MrD's post, as played, calling the flop reraise is a viable alternative. If he fires a second bullet let him have it, but if he doesn't fire you can take it down with a pot size bet or shove usually.

[tame_deuces]

I'd just raise.

Its basically the same as a shove anyway, you just mentally close your eyes to what cards are going to fall on the turn/river.

Basically just a reverse stop'n'go. (gogo?)

I guess it can seem scary when thinking ahead, like decent pokerplayers tend to to do, - but I still like it a lot better than shoving, and a helluva lot more than folding.

[supafrey]

interesting idea tame. elaborate why?

[kompis]

id prolly try to get to showdown cheaply as possible... saying that if i call the flop i prolly call a turn shove so meh.

i guess the premise is that u can call down and get value off the bluffs while minimising your losses when you are behind.

[Felting]

id prolly try to get to showdown cheaply as possible... saying that if i call the flop i prolly call a turn shove so meh.

i guess the premise is that u can call down and get value off the bluffs while minimising your losses when you are behind.

sounds like 1st level thinking to me.

[HalfSugar]

I figured that further cards could only worsen my hand and that to play back at him, even with a minimum re-raise, was going to mean 1/4 of my stack was committed to a hand where I was possibly already dead or had a 1/3 chance of losing by the river. 1/4 in with 2/3 chance of winning looks good on paper but the odds of him checking it all the way were probably nil even with no read on the guy.

If I shove and he shows the flush, I fall into a deep spiral of self-loathing about how I can be such a bonehead in this situation. If I call and he fires the turn, whether it be a club or otherwise, I'm just wasting chips on the flop as there is no way I can play back at him again unless I am 100% sure he does not have the flush (which I could never be).

[Felting]

If I call and he fires the turn, whether it be a club or otherwise, I'm just wasting chips on the flop as there is no way I can play back at him again unless I am 100% sure he does not have the flush (which I could never be).

This is the only flaw in your thinking as far as I can see. You only have to call 400 for a chance to win 1100. All you have to do is say to yourself if he fires on the turn I muck. If he checks I fire. When you get to fire you will win the pot a big majority of the time.

edit: Once again, please raise with KQ from now on. Helps get the rags in the muck and gives u a better idea where u stand.

[tame_deuces]

interesting idea tame. elaborate why?

I'm probably coloured by the stakes I play, but a raise would frequently get more calls from a worse hands than a shove, and once they call the flop they'll be hard pressed to fold the turn (and mayhaps river pending on how you play this) - so you're basically just taking advantage of players not analyzing future streets as well as yourself.

So if you simply disregard the coming cards it will do the same as a shove, but you'd get more value when ahead and lose the same when behind as shoving the flop would do.

So basically it is the idea behind a stop'n'go in reverse.

[crack]

Nah I can't fold this Geno. There's too much chance he is raising with a pair/draw combo like QcJx or something. Unless I knew my player and knew he would play a flush fast every now and again I ain't going to lay this down. Generally when the weaker players flop a flush they like to slow play and try and check raise turn.

Not sure what I would do though on flop, raise/shove or call flop raise turn AI.

And what someone else said, open raise don't open limp.

[gumbie]

Every single time I flopped one of these straights at FR and got action the guy had a flush and that's a lot of times.

The other day I flopped my first one at 6max and got action from a set.

[HalfSugar]

I think maybe I play too weak because I know my flaws - raising KQo in MP exposes me post-flop because I know that I am a horrible player and if an Ace comes, I don't have the stones to do anything other than check/fold and I will find myself looking for a way out of the hand

Apart from short handed, most of the time I fold KQo in EP/MP unless the blinds are very small (bear in mind I only play STTs/MTTs live, never cash games) which again is probably weak play.

[crack]

I'd rather fold KQo when the blinds are small and play it when the blinds are big. Hands like KQo won't play great in multiway pots and when the blinds are big, less players will be calling your raises to see a flop.

The bigger the blinds in relation to your stack, the higher in value hands like that go up imo. There is more in the pot for you to take down which will increase your stack size by a bigger %.

If you don't feel comfortable with playing the hand when it is folded round to you then just muck it, don't limp. Folding is a bad play, but limping is probably worse.

You need to get to a stage though where you are comfortable playing these hands and not be worried about getting outplayed post flop all the time. Maybe read a few books or get involved in more tournaments.