TexasHoldem-Poker.com

[HalfSugar]

Wow, that is a dumbass thread title but I cannot think of a better way to describe this succinctly.

This is stolen from another thread by K-Rug:

The TDA and WSOP rules state
In no-limit or pot-limit, a raise must be made by

a.) placing the full amount in the pot in one motion or
b.) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips into the pot or
c.) verbally declaring "raise" prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion. Less than a full raise in an all-in situation does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

The bold bit is the bit I am interested in because it cropped up recently at a live game I play.

Question 1.
Let's say we have a table of 10, the blinds are 1,000/2,000 and the BB has 3,500 chips.

Let's also say that a MP player with 20,000 chips has called the BB and the SB with 20,000 has completed. If the BB goes all-in, am I right to say that neither the MP player nor the SB can raise above the 3,500?

Question 2.
Let's say we have a table of 10, the blinds are 1,000/2,000 a player in MP has 10,000 chips and everyone else has 20,000 chips.

The action starts and the MP player min-raises to 4,000. The SB calls and the BB makes it 8,000 to go in total. If the MP player puts in his remaining chips which constitutes an under-raise of only 2,000 chips, what are the options open to the SB and BB players?


My thoughts are:

The SB can re-raise provided he makes it 12,000 total to go.

If the SB only calls the under-raise, the BB has no options other than to call the 2,000 or fold since he cannot re-open what was essentially his own initial raise which has not been raised since he made it.

Is that right?

[Jernej Zorec]

did we have this exact discussion like a month ago ?

[HalfSugar]

did we have this exact discussion like a month ago ?

If we did, find a link

[LeeG]

1. Correct, the other players can only call the 3500.
2. The SB is not restricted in any way. He can fold, call (which doesn't repoen bidding) or raise to 12000 or more as he chooses.

[K-rug]

Q1
Blinds 1000/2000

Player A (5k): Fold
Player B (9k): Fold
Player C (20k): Call
Player D (10k): Fold
Player E (10k) D: Fold
Player F (15k) SB: Call
Player G (3.5k) BB: All-In Raise Under

Both only have the option to call. Because Player G raised less than a full raise and he is all-in, betting is not reopened. If Player G had 4k or if the SB raised then it would be a different story.


Q2
Blinds 1000/2000

Player A (20k): Fold
Player B (20k): Fold
Player C (10k): Raise (4k) - All-In For Less (10k)
Player D (20k): Fold
Player E (20k) D: Fold
Player F (20k) SB: Call (4k) -??
Player G (20k) BB: Raise (8k) -??

Since the SB has yet to act to the BB initial raise he has the option of re-raising, calling or folding. If the SB calls the BB can only call or fold. If the SB raises… well the BB can do anything.

It would be different if the Player C only had 7k, went all-in and Player G had only called.

Maybe I misread something though. But if the BB raises to 8k, wouldn't the SB have to raise to 16k not 12k? Or maybe I need that coffee.

[K-rug]

Man I really thought I it was the lack of coffee. After re-reading Q2 when I came home and second guessing myself turning to the WSOP rules as a reference.

Code: Select all

BETTING AND RAISING...
6. Any wager must be at least the size of the previous bet or raise in that round, unless a player is going all-in.

So if SB wanted to raise the BB who bet 8k (the active bet amount) he would have to put out 16k. No?

[HalfSugar]

So if SB wanted to raise the BB who bet 8k he would have to put out 16k. No?

Surely no because the blinds were 1,000/2,000, it was raised to 4,000 and then to 8,000. The raise from 4 to 8 is only 4,000 so the next player only need make it 12,000 (a further 4,000) to min-raise.

[K-rug]

HOLY MOLEY BATMAN!!!

Can you say brain disconnect. I totally read that wrong not once but twice. My brain read raised 8k not to 8k. I'll leave my embarassing post up so you can point and laugh.

It's been a long day. That's my excuse. Wow... simply math that I learned in third grade and reading logic failed me.

LOL time to sign on to Full Tilt

[kal_art@hotbox.ru]

In regards to question 2, if the player is All-In for a total of 10k and the previous raise was from 4k to a total of 8k (a raise of 4k) then the minimum bet would be 14k (4k on top of the All-In bet). This is the common rule used now in many places. However, 'completing the raise' up to 12k (4k on top of the 8k) is possible, but not used in many cardrooms.

[golddog]

To be a little more specific on Q1, you're right if BB has 3500 at the start of the hand. If he has 3500 behind (after posting), then of course he's making a legal bet which re-opens the betting for the others.

Right on #2 as well; since he can't make a legal raise, pre-flop action of the others is call or fold.