Hello and a few questions

[Sentinel]

Hi all,

I've been playing for a couple of years and with real money for about 6 months. Like most of you, I have a good grasp of the fundamentals of poker and don't go all in at the first sign of an ace.

But I have some questions that may make me look more noob than I really am, but they need to be asked, regardless and I'd appreciate your help.

Apologies for it being long.


1) Pros Not Following Own Advice
At any given point, in any given tournament, on any given channel you will see pros betting, raising and even calling raises with marginal hands such as 84, J5, K7 etc.

Considering every strategy guide/book/pro extols the virtue of playing premium hands - be it their own category, Sklanskys, Harrington's or whoever - why do the pros go against this with such regularity?

And this has nothing to do with being short stacked or TV editing showing risky hands for excitement purposes.



2) Outplaying On The Flop
We have all heard pros talk about this but how? At the end of the day, it all boils down to betting or folding. I already represent the board if I am on a bluff, slow play if I have the nuts and fold if I sense my opponent is strong and not laying down.

So what more is there? Obviously I am not completely brilliant at any aspect of poker so there must be more.

There is a 3rd question but it's so long, I will post a separate thread.

Thx in advance.

[supafrey]

These questions are a bit too wide in scope to possibly answer... I don't know if you're hoping for some "Secret" to be revealed to you, but you'll quickly realize that there's no magical way to make millions.. it's really just a long and gradual grind for most people.

If you want specific answers ask specific questions... Asking "how/when/why do i outplay a flop" is sort of like asking a coach in football why he does play XXXX on 1st down sometimes but sometimes play YYYY on 1st down in shockingly similar looking situations. There's a lot going on there besides just the "bet. bet. bet." you're talking about.

This isn't going to help you much, but nothing's really going to teach you such general questions execpt for experience.

[Sentinel]

Hi there,

It's ok - I do not expect a secret. Having reachedpro level in 2 other areas in life, I am sick of people expecting to be able to take what I call "a magic pill" and excel.

I just thought the questions were pretty simple to answer in a general kinda way.

Thx anyway.

[supafrey]

It's a situational game - saying why do people "do Xxxx" sometimes doesn't properly address the situation, right?

When ever you see any action "from the pros" you're missing out on a lot of history, context, table-talk, experience, etc, AND working within a range of possible hands, bluffs and moves. If it's next to impossible for someone at the table to figure out (and they already know 2 cards that are not possible...) then it's only going to be harder for the railbird, no?

[Dave B]

A few simple explanations:

1) You need to GET into the money in tournaments to make money. You only see a few select edited "interesting" hands on some shows and just the final table on other shows.

2) You need to mix up your game. I play mostly limit and probably come in raising 1/2 of the time. 80-85% of those I have a solid hand. The rest of the time I am in position w/ a marginal hand or playing junk hands w/ some potential like 65 suited and hope to either steal postflop or really make a killing when I hit and my hand is disguised.

Players will remember the 65, they will forget the AA KK QQ. You will be seen as wild, loose and unpredictable and get paid off more on big hands.

Against better players, if you are predictable, you simply wont win. You will win smaller pots when you have a big hand and lose big pots when they make their hand.

[Sentinel]

Thx for the replies. That helped a lot.

As for getting paid off more if you're seen as loose, wouldn't that be the other way around - that people are more likely to call with their 10s if they know you call with 6s?

[MrDarling]

A good loose player will see lots of flops and make lots of small stabs at the pots with marginal hands. However even loose players hit monsters.
When a loose player hit a monster you can't put him on a monster, since he play almost every pot. So if you are unlucky enough to have a decent hands, you are almost have to pay him off.
Now think what happen if you play against a play that play 1 hand in an hour. Would you think there is a chance your T's are good when he raised PF? Would you pay him off with 2nd pair if he make a big move on the turn?
Hopefully you wouldn't. Since when a tight player make a big move, they usually have the goods.
Its much easier to play against tight players.

all that said, in the micros ; where people rarely pay attention to how you play. Tight straight forward game is often the best.

[jimmer]

1) Pros Not Following Own Advice
At any given point, in any given tournament, on any given channel you will see pros betting, raising and even calling raises with marginal hands such as 84, J5, K7 etc.

Considering every strategy guide/book/pro extols the virtue of playing premium hands - why do the pros go against this with such regularity?

You also need to understand, quite a few pro's play each other regularly. Therefore if they make the same play in the same positions, their hands are easily read. If they start raising with K7, would anyone else ever put them on that hand?

2) Outplaying On The Flop
We have all heard pros talk about this but how? At the end of the day, it all boils down to betting or folding.

Your right, it does. But you can also increase your chances of winning more pots by learning how your opponents are playing and adjusting accordingly. For example, Some players find it harder than others to fold a hand. If you want to steal a pot, who would you prefere to be playing. The guy that calls everything, or the guy that folds 90% of what he plays.

Secondly, some players are more aggressive than others. For example if a hand is checked around to them they bet, but they will also fold if they smell strength. If i hit trips on the flop, do I slow play or bet? I obviously slowplay, knowing he'll bet and i can raise.

Another key thing i work on (on cash tables) is observing how much i need to raise to encourage action or lose it. I've played on some tables where the min bet takes down the pot. An hour later on the same table, a bet of 5xbb gets called every time. The last thing i want to do with pocket Aces is get everyone to fold, but i also don't want to get 4 callers on the flop.


You simply need to watch the players your facing and adjust accordingly.

[Sentinel]

Thx!

[MrDarling]

For a long time I though out playing someone means you try to steal every pot from them.
Now I changed my perspective, I think being unable to out play someone means that you can correctly identify both hand strength and decide if you can steal the pot away, call down with marginal hands, get extra value from marginal hands or fold big hands against him.
Being able to correctly fold flopped trips against a player you have reads on is more out playing him then stealing the pot when his AK doesn't improve.

[jimmer]

For a long time I though out playing someone means you try to steal every pot from them.
Now I changed my perspective, I think being unable to out play someone means that you can correctly identify both hand strength and decide if you can steal the pot away, call down with marginal hands, get extra value from marginal hands or fold big hands against him.
Being able to correctly fold flopped trips against a player you have reads on is more out playing him then stealing the pot when his AK doesn't improve.

You are right. Lots of players feel they every time thay play poker they're taking on the world, they fight anyone and everyone. They also feel they need to protect their blinds every single time and fight of every pot their playing for. This isn't the case at all.