HELP PLEASE!! Sort of long, but I need advice.

[thecadman]

I'm fairly new to poker, but I've managed to develop decent solid game in a short time with play money. It's working well against plenty of players that are more experienced then me. I typically discount fish as wins in order to keep it somewhat in reality. My problem comes when dealing with a certain type of river chasing fish though. For the most part I can bait the hook by giving some chips on a few hands then taking them and everything else they have right back on a good solid hand. This last bad beat, however, was by far my worst to date.

I'm sure everyone knows this type of fish.

It's a 100/200 table and I have K8 pocket. I raise to 400 and 3 or 4 people call. Flop comes 5 K 4 rainbow. I'm looking pretty good here because everyone checks and I already showed power with my pre-flop raise so I get the price of the turn card up to 2,500 trying to appear as though I have trip K’s or at least a large kicker or maybe two pair K’s and 5’s or 4’s. I'm not going to slow play, just give me the pot. Only 1 person calls and I start thinking maybe they also have K with a pretty high kicker and figure slim chance that I have trips. Maybe they paired the K's with 4's or 5's or going to chase the turn and river to try and pair their pocket A or maybe they already have pocket AA I just didn't know. I do, however, know they checked the flop so my best guess was a chase here. Turn card comes and it's a 6. They only check it and I say enough of this and no way are they getting a cheap river card so I up it to 12,000. Low and behold they call the damn bet. Now I'm thinking what in the world could they have since they only check/called the flop and the turn card and now willing to finish the hand. No way it's a straight or flush since that’s what a lot of fish chase because why would they match a 400 pre-flop raise at the start with 78, 73 or 23 or why in the world would they risk drawing out an A for 12,000 and etc. etc. If they had AA surely they would have re-raised pre-flop or raised the flop bet at least instead of checking. I just didn't know what to think. I’m either getting slowed played by AA or this fish is determined.

The river card comes and it’s trash 10. They go all-in for 35,000. Now I’m totally confused. The river card couldn’t help either of us even if they single paired it. Did they have two pair K’s with 4’s, 5’s? I’m guessing total fish bluff because they wouldn’t be checking if they had something before and they never bet like they had pocket tens either. I’m not letting this happen so I call. Low and behold they had a 23 suited pocket for a 23456 straight. I was absolutely ticked off. I asked them what in the heck was all that about? No real player would follow a pre-flop raise with 23 and then follow a 2,500 bet on a prayer turn draw and then simply check with a straight and give a free river that could help their opponent. Their stupid response was “I was watching youâ€Â

[alphakenny1]

uhh..like you said its play money and no one cares. its funny when you play and sometimes you'll see 5 people go all in in one hand. using the play money tables is no way to improve your skills. actually the only thing it might help is that you know how to play low limit tables like 2-4 because that is how they are played. very loose. but what i suggest is go play in some sit and go tournaments or some scheduled tournaments. the play in those is little better than in the play money tables especially the scheduled tourneys. people take it little more seriously since there is something to play for.

[ORGrinder]

with all due respect... it blows me away how some players, when they come upon what they consider to be a bad beat, pumle the winning opponent over the head with their poker strategy play guide.

you've heard of Bible thumbers?! there's definitly the same type of people in poker.

the truth is this... fish or no fish... no matter how "solid" the stats say your should be on your hole cards... no matter how "perfect" you think your play is, or your read is on the other players at the table... you CAN still lose a hand. it's the name of the game.

in my opinion, blowing up on someone because you lose a hand... even if they are indeed a fish... makes you look foolish.

it sounds like you have solid play skills... but need to remember that even the best players lose hands from time to time.

beating other players over the head with your poker play book only serves to diminish your table image (in my opinion) and makes you look bad.

jmho though.

[thecadman]

I appreciate the info, thanks.

JKeats, I really don't feel that I bible thumped at all. I merely wanted to know what the logic was behind a 23 chase like that. Yes, I got outplayed after the turn when they made their straight, but in no way would anyone say their play was smart up to that point. I understand luck plays a part in poker, but good lord.. when they say they had me read after 3 hands and then claim it was strategy... that's just ridiculous! At least admit you fished. I was told they lost most of thir chips in the hands to come on more fishing, so they always get theirs in the end.

I'm not really ticked or looking for sympathy because as it's been said, it's only play money and it's there for us to learn. I was simply looking for advice on how the hand was played and I'm guessing there just wasn't anything I could do other then fold instead of following the all-in and live to get them on another hand. Live and learn!

[Sente]

Relax man, that's poker and that's the nature of the beast. It can be a frustrating game sometimes because stupid play is often rewarded while smart play loses. However, that is only in the short run. In the long run, smart play will prevail. You want people to play garbage cards and make mistakes, it adds to your long-term profit.

Low limit poker isn't much different or low stakes pot limit or no limit. In my estimation at least 90% of players at that level have NO concept of what pot odds are. They'll play any draw and hope for the best. This usually works to your advantage and does in the long run. But, your opponent's call after the flop wasn't as horrible as you might think. If he has the opportuntiy to take your entire stack, his implied odds aren't so bad.

As far the checking the straight, nothing new there. It is common that people will "check to the raiser" or check to whoever has been the aggressor or leader in the hand. So when they make their hand, they continue do that and decide to be "cute" with their hand and go for the trap or check-raise (a symptom of watching too much WPT on the Travel Channel perhaps ).

It is an annoying tactic because it is so stupid. First, they risk giving away free cards like you said. Second, they are leaving money on the table. In limit poker, I love the checking and going for the check-raise on the river, trapping someone for one big bet and failing to make a penny on the flop and/or turn. Someone is mostly likely to call until the river, so a straight out bet will mostly likely be more profitable then checking to trap someone on the river. It is annoying because it works on you sometimes because you don't think people would be that stupid. But they are that stupid! They will go for the clever play instead of the most profitable one.

You seem to have a good grasp of the game. Just concentrate on working to improving your play and not worry about what the other guy is doing, because the same things will happen with real money. Learn to recognize when people have made straights and flushes. You'll end up losing far more calling people's made hands then you lose by folding to their bluffs. Also, you could brush up on your standing hand selection. K8o is a not a raise, but a fold (except when on the button and in the blinds unraised).

[thecadman]

Thanks for the advice Sente.

Sorry didn't mention the suits to well. It was pocket K8suited or I definately would not have raised. Yeah, I will admit I got a bit carried away with the loose play going on at the time. I had an aggressive table image going with the regular players and that's why they folded after the flop bet. The caller was only 3 hands in at the table so maybe that's where I failed? You can't project an image to somebody who wasn't around huh.

[K-rug]

Is this Phil Helmuth?

Score: 5 Funny

[thecadman]

Sorry... thought this was the beginners forum

I was just trying to have a discussion. Maybe I missed something where it says forums aren't meant for this?

Please send me a link where it states what topics are allowed if we are allowed to discuss at all that is.

thanks in advance

[JohnnyCache]

I could see being super pissed if the spread was 10 then 6 . . . But I might have played this like him, although I would have maybe bet a bit different. . . that really wasn't that bad a play, even if he bought your three bluff . . . if I called a flop and had four connected cards, two of them in my hand, after a flop, I might have chased a straight too . . . if the money was right (which it really wasn't, but in NL you could fix that if you made the hand) . . . with a 456 and K on the board, with a pocket 8 kicker, it was a safe bet that he had higher kings or a 2-6 or a 4-8 or a . . . you bluffed and he hung for a card and made his draw . . . on 4th, not 5th, so you had action on a garbage river as a stop sign . . . and all in on a two in the pocket straight, head up, is pretty sound with the mess on the board making a flush or quads unlikely . . . esp since you would have to have 3-7 or 7-8 to top him, and only the 7-8 is a worry because you would have folded the 3-7 . . . so his only real mistake was hanging in on suited connectors that low, which he probably did because it was cheap in relation to his stack (400 vs 35k) but in a NL game, with 2 cards/action to come . . .he knows you are comiting to the hand with no better then 3/k or a drawing hand . . . he's drawing for a next-to-the nuts hand when his opponent prob. doesn't have the nuts . . . not the worst play, although I doubt he was thinking that when he called. . . he made a tolerable call, but probably for the wrong reasons . . .

...just imagine how ticked he would have been if the river had been a seven . . .

[General Sal]

Most of what was posted I agree with. Mainly, don't sweat it. Especially in play money. You wouldn't be upset if it was a live tournament, playing for 2 cents or 4 cents would ya? And this is actually free. Just play the sit n gos in real money. You might lose a little money at first, but you'll probably do fine.

[SillyPuppy]

I think the best that can be said for the situation is this:

You're a better player than he is, and although he got you this time, in the long run, you'll do better. Poker, to me, is just like anything else; every dog has its day and that day was his. Dust yourself off and keep moving forward. And next time you see him, take it all back!

[nicthestick]

Being very aggressive is good, but being able to read when you were beat is better. If I were in your position and K45 hit and I bet out and got called, I would think, straight draw, AK, or 2 pair. In the face of a preflop raise, I like to play hands like small connected cards, and of course all the premiums. When the 6 hit on 4th street, I would be almost certian that I was beat when the dude check/called. Tough that he was on 23, but any of the other hands were possible. Dont overrate top pair and middle kicker, It will cost you much flow.

[ORGrinder]

Dont overrate top pair and middle kicker, It will cost you much flow.

this is awesome advice (for me anyway)... and have learned this from experiance the past few weeks. it's cost me a couple bucks... which isn't much really, but considering its been at the .02/.04 tables is a LOT.

[thecadman]

Thanks again for all the advice.

I've seen a lot of improvement in the past two days by adjusting a few major areas.

#1 - Watching for those flush draws and straights a heck of a lot more instead of just focusing on whats in my hand

#2 - Betting my stronger pockets a litte harder to help weed out a few more persistant chasers early in the hand. This of course helps make #1 easier. 3 people going in to the turn card is not near as hard to deal with like 9 is.

My betting all around has really improved. I was only betting based on what I didn't want to lose. Now I am betting on what I feel will get them to fold. I watch the way my opponents bet and adjust my betting as necessary to work toward my advantage.

The more I play this game and learn how to do it right the more I like it that's for sure.

[BeerWench13]

I merely wanted to know what the logic was behind a 23 chase like that.

I'll tell you what he/she was thinking....."Why not?"
There are no stakes in play money. I know that you and many others play there to learn the game before risking real cash on it, but you don't learn to swim in a dixie cup. Play money is not a serious game for most players. Many are just there to "win" something without having to take any risks. For bragging rights, I guess you'd say. So they can say, "Man, if that was real money I'd have won a million dollars!"

My first suggestion is learn to take the bad beats in stride. Check out the bad beats section of this forum. I lost $48.25 in one hand weekend before last with a full house. These things happen. You just have to jump right back in and keep trying.

I'm going to be bold and make another suggestion: Don't play a high card with a poor kicker even if they are suited unless you're in a short-handed game. I know that occasionally you do hit the flush, but it's usually a long shot and, especially if you have to pay a preflop raise, it'll end up costing you more in the long run then you'd win with those hands when it does hit. Those are hands you want to limp in with maybe as SB BB or on the button. They are not strong starting hands (especially in early position).

There will almost always be some fish chasing something in a hand. Your job is to figure out which they are and what they're chasing. This is much harder online since you can't see a person's tells, but it can be done. I had a guy call my all-in after the flop with a 72off without his having even made a pair on the board! This was in a real money tourney. There are a lot of players out there who are the-glass-is-half-full kind of people thinking "I can still get it on the river." Eventually, if you play wisely you will take their money.