How to beat bullies?

[fonzerelli_79]

i am relatively new to hold em - but im holding my own at the tables
ive been noticing a lot of my own flaws which i think is a good thing as it gives me a lot of room to improve

anyways, i was playing the ladbrokes freeroll tonight
i got off to a good start. I was chip leader at my own table for the first half hour then they moved tables etc. I was then about 4th in chips at the table. At the time the average was about 1700 and i had 5000 ish. The new leader had about 12000 chips. The first hand i had a strong hand, i cant remember the exact hand (sorry!) but i remember i had a pair of aces with a possible straight. Anyways, it was just me and the chip leader and he just bullied me out of the pot by continuing to raise. I didnt want to take the chance so i folded (but still lost about 1500 in chips)

I got a few good hands soon after and i got back up to about 6500 quite quickly. So he raises, and soon everyone drops off. Ive got two jacks. The flop comes 10 9 8 all different suit. He continues to raise and i match him. The turn comes a 5 and the river a 6.

Now im all in at this point (infact i was at the turn) and i dont reckon he has a straight - at most hes got lucky and has two pair. Turns out he had two sixes. Jammy beggar

Now, first of all, i know that going all in with two jacks is kinda crazy (especially after the flop) but i noticed a few hands that the guy was a maniac. He was going in most hands and went in with really weak hands and just used his chips to gain an advantage.

I would have dropped the jacks at the flop in a real tournament if someone raised so much but i really wanted to see what would happen and since i was playing a pokerroom freeroll at the same time i wasnt too bothered as im still learning.

What is the best thing to do when someone is bullying you out of pots? This obviously happens when youve only got like 1000 chips left and the blinds are 600 - everyone always bullies you and as well they should. But nearer the start of the tourney, are you better backing off and letting maniacs/bullies play it out. I dropped about 4 or 5 strong hands because of the raising was just silly - it was obviously just to price people out but its still risky never the less calling such a raise before the flop.

any feedback would be appreciated
thanks peeps :)

[Nate PT]

If Im in a pot with a bully and Im about 70% sure I have him beat I slow play big time and usually youll dent there chip count quite heavily if they keep bullying. Or just dont play mediocre (spelling) hands against them and wait til you have a much better hand and bully them as best you can. Usually their stacks go up and down and theyll be eliminated once their luck runs out. HTH
-Nate

[fonzerelli_79]

yeah
i was a bit annoyed with myself as i knew i should have folded and let other people fight it out with stupid raises - as i had a good chip count

but you live and learn i guess

[Dave B]

I think if you have a bully jabbing you in the face you need to kick him real hard right in the nuts.

Even if you loose the hand-he will repect you and play you carefully. On the JJ hand-you had the top pair and a str8 draw, if he opens with a good size bet the I would reraise(no all in since he raised preflop). An overpair is an extremely strong hand heads up.

The last thing that you want to do against a bully is call. Either fold or reraise. If you happen to have an extremely strong hand, then sure, slow play it and milk him.

[ORGrinder]

what dave said... but also... don't check. if you're not strong enough to raise, fold. he's just gonna put you in for a ton of chips if you check.

i suggest AGAINST slow playing a bully. generally it's not necessary, and you can get yourself in trouble (imho).

against a bully, play only premium hands and do so very aggresively. you're still gonna lose on occasion... but that's poker, and if you let him push you around he'll own you the entire game.

so... PREMIUM hands only, and VERY AGGRESSIVE when you do have the premium hand. that's my opinion anyway.

[Blarg]

You can either let him build pots for you that you scoop up later, or try to discipline him, is the way I see it. If you like him improving your odds to make a big kill or two, play along and let him feel like he's comfortable enough to stay.

If you think you can win more at the table when he's not around, try to punish him in a theatrical way. Trap them in glaring misjudgments that everyone at the table notices and guys who are bullies will often feel the wind go out of their sails. They'll feel deflated or embarassed and leave. People try to run over the cards and the players for many reasons, winning not necessarily being one of them at all. If you hit them where they really live, in their ego, they'll often feel like the magic has gone, or their table image has been blown. Sometimes you can see the fear and uncertainty in their eyes as they figure the jig is up and they'll practically bolt from the table, spilling their chips, shouting to the floor man to get them another table or something. Once you destroy their fantasy of power and control, they retreat into their normal powerless, harried lives and you can get a little of your own power and control back.

Finding your moment can be tricky, and that moment doesn't always come either. Sometimes these guys just run over a table by never missing a card, or bumping into another guy whose ego gets bruised so he gets in a raising war -- and you see your chance to profit off the two of them, except for the unfortunate happenstance of seeing all your hands bust or never getting that card you need. Sometimes you just have to back off yourself and let nature take its course, or find another table.

But see if you can find a pattern to his mistakes. Some people ALWAYS raise on a favorite card. Does he raise EVERY time the flop has a queen of hearts? Feel more confident the next time you see a queen of hearts. If he wins a pot, does he ALWAYS raise the next one? Wild men do wild things, and a lot of players are superstitious or have give-away patterns.

I guess what I'm saying is, sure, try to outplay him. But if you want him to stop trying to run over you, doing it quietly probably won't work. Teach him some respect and make a beat dig into him if you can. As a for-instance, if he doesn't understand pot odds, raise him good on some hands when you have a more or less break-even chance to win with a drawing hand, by your calculations, against his pair-based hands that he assumes are always superior. If you lose, you were betting at about even money, so it's not the worst gamble to take. But if you win, he'll either feel humiliated or think you're crazy raising with a draw into his pair hand, or both. Either way, you'll throw him off his game and make him perhaps respect, perhaps fear, perhaps despise you, but at any rate no longer feel like he's playing his game the way he wants to. And since bullies are often there for purely ego reasons, once you make him feel uneasy about his own game, he'll have no reason to stay.

[fonzerelli_79]

some great tips there - thanks people
guess patience is the key with this problem and knowing when to take your chance and play your hand

[Dave B]

One more thing-sounds like a multi table, watch to see when the table will break. Table 1, you have to deal with him. A higher numbered table, then you can just wait him out until a table change.

[fonzerelli_79]

yeah it was multitable
it was like in the middle of the tournament

[kingking]

One other thing.. When you decide to make a stand..Don't quit. Stay with it raising all the way. Don't let his betting throw you off. It takes stamina and a faith that you have the better hand, but once you start, dont quit because that is what he is banking on.

[Always_Bored]

A big Louiville slugger and a map to his house would help. He cant raise if he cant click his mouse because his hands are shattered into a thousand pieces.

I think that guy was just a bad player. Ive seen a lot of players who have no idea how to play just keep raising thinking everyone will fold. The best defense is just wait untill you get a monster hand and sucker the guy for as much money as you can. Your all in with the jacks was a bit risky but you did have an overpair and an open ended straight draw. He was much worse off, because he had an inside straight draw and an underpair. You were the favourite to win that. He just got lucky and hit a six on the river.

[fonzerelli_79]

he did get lucky - the odds were definately in my favour but thats poker;)
hopefully our paths will cross again - lol

[Blarg]

One of my favorite players ever was a bully. He would bet and raise hard with almost anything, but so would I -- if he was in the pot. And my check raises on top of his raises and re-raises made people think twice about calling(I'm usually tight-aggressive, so when I bet, people usually think at least a little bit about how much money they want to spend).

Anyway, my favorite thing was to make people think that a serious player like me might cost them money, and a crazy player like him definitely would make a hand spendy, so when you balanced the two together, it probably wasn't worth it unless they had a premium hand. (Good cue for me to leave, if they called, actually.)

What I would try to do is make it so I was heads up versus the guy. That's how your sorta solid pair hands win -- against crazy draws 1 v 1. Once I got everybody out, the challenge was to outplay him(not that hard) or beat him legit on the showdown by having better cards.

Sometimes we got in betting wars, and sometimes he became intimidated after a while and just folded when I had nothing. Seeing me beat him so often made other people fearful to come in sometimes, too, which was all the better, because I couldn't necessarily beat others at the table -- just the joker, since I had his number.

Anyway, it's often a good strategy with the very worst of these guys to get them heads up. If you have any grasp of the fundamentals, you'll find your mediocre hands will often hold up, you'll draw just as well as he will, or he'll just get discouraged and fold when he sees he's facing someone who's not only his personal nemesis, but is very likely to have at least something better than the crap he has.

Brings a smile to my face remembering the time I called this guy's raise and raised him again with a no-pair hand...and won.