How would you play this one?

[hookedonholdem]

Greetings all. This is my first post. I wanted some opinions on this hand because I've been seething over it for 12 hours now. Here's the scenario:

20/2 dollar single table tourney
7 players left
Blinds 15/30

I am on the small blind with pocket 8s. Player in late position raises to 60 chips. 3 callers (obviously including myself)

Flop: Kh 9h 8h

I figure the best course of action is to see who has what, so I bet 150 chips. Gal in 1st position calls, two fold, and the original raiser raises to 300 chips. At this point I'm thinking the guy probably has AK, or at least the ace of hearts. However, there are 500 chips in the pot and i do have a set, needing to pair the board for a full-house that would negate the flush. I go all-in for 470 more chips hoping that no one has KK, 99 or a flush already. After a long pause, the person in 1st position goes all in for her remaining 320 chips. The original raiser folds.

Next two cards: 5c 2h

The player in first position turns Qh Js and wins with the 4-flush.

Everyone at the table is congratulating her on a "great call". Finally, I retorted "Great call? No K, no A hearts... All she had was an inside str8 draw looking for a 10 and a Q-high flush draw. How is that a great call?" I proceed to get hammered by the other guys at the table telling me I made a bad play going all in and that I should know when to lay down a hand.

Of course I didn't get another card higher than a 9 the whole time and ended up finishing out of the money in 5th place.

I know if the situation were reversed I would either put the guy who went all-in on a K with a good kicker, a set, a flush already, or the ace of hearts for the nut flush draw. Under no circumstances would I call with Qh Js. Am I crazy or are they?

[ballbp]

No, she made the wrong call. I would never put all my chips in on a draw. I'm not sure if I would have put them all-in though with your trips though. With the K out there and three hearts as well, your 8's could have been beaten already but I guess putting them all-in was the best way to find out.

[Fat Tony]

no, you're not crazy. your opponent made, IMO, a foolish call and just got lucky and caught the fourth heart. no K or A made it an even dumber play. however, when a fourth suited card hits the board, more often than not you're gonna lose. i would not have gone all-in with only the three hearts on the board, because your opponent was representing a flush, even thou she had to get extremely fortunate and catch on the river. flopping three suited cards when you're not on a flush draw is quite often the kiss of death. in spite of her luck, this was a hand that you probably should have seen coming.

[hookedonholdem]

Yeah, I see the point about the hearts (and this in fact went through my mind). When she called I figured she had the flush already and I was dead. When the board didn't pair and a fourth heart hit I knew I was dead... I guess in retrospect I should have check-called until the board paired. The problem with that is that you end up calling your whole stack away and having to fold if a fourth suited card strikes. In the meantime, you allow players with weaker hands to stick around to make a hand that beats you. I guess my thought process was:

1. It is unlikely someone has KK...they would have raised more in most instances (though there are some pathologic slow-players on partypoker)
2. 99 is a possibility in which case I'm dead no matter what...
3. Even if someone has a flush, I have 7 outs plus a runner-runner pair to fill a full-house or quads and take it down anyway
4. I have the best hand right now and want to make people think hard about playing on the draw.

[Always_Bored]

I agree with your play. Most of the time it will win for you. Sometimes the retards get lucky. Just remember all the times that these people have given you money by making calls like that and not hitting.

[littleogre]

It was a good play. You put your money in with the best hand and that is never a bad play . This post also brings up another point. I can not stand when bad players pat eachother on the back. Here is an example. The other day i went all in with pocket queens and everyone folded save for 1 guy. A king comes out on the river and i get beaten because this player was holding kng/10 off suit. Then the other players at the table start telling him what a great player he is and how skillfully he played the hand. I then informed them that it was just dumb luck. Needless to say they all told me i didnt know what i was talking about. I decided not to say anything else as i see no need explain basic poker and odds to such people.[/u]

[krakajak]

You wroye: I figure the best course of action is to see who has what, so I bet 150 chips.

I think 5x the min. is kinda big for a "feeler" bet. I probably would've bet 60. If I were the girl in first position, I would call the bet either way. I've got a 4 flush that only one card in the deck can beat, and a gutshot for a bonus. It's worth laying down $150 for w/ 2 others in the pot. Now, when you went all in, If you'd only bet 60 in the first place, the gal woulda had $450 in left, and wouldn't've felt she had such an investment to protect. She might have folded. But when you're down to your last $300 chips, you've invested a huge chunk already, and there's an enormous pot staring at you, you have to say what the hell. I mean, if you fold there, with only 320 chips, you're pretty much out of it anyway unless you get real lucky a little later. Why wait for luck to strike? Better to throw em all in and hope it strikes now. So I think she did what she had to do.

[hookedonholdem]

I see ur point there. She was more or less pot-committed.

[nicthestick]

You gotta lay them down. WITH OUT A DOUBT. If you even think that you are beat, you must fold a hand as good as a set. It sucks, I know, but any chips that you can use later to win pots are chips well saved.

[RonInFla]

nicthestick is right here i think. i always feel out what my opponent has before going all in. and never get your self into a situation where you are check/calling the turn and river... you might as well save your chips for a hand you feel more confident with... even if that means throwing away your set

tough one to lay down though

[boden12]

I've noticed people will get *REAL* aggressive when they hit four to a flush on the flop (even with only the 2nd or so highest flush). I guess poorer playes see better players raising on the flop with this and decide to join in. The only reason the better players do this is when they've got good position and are hoping for a free river card to complete, but beginners aren't recognizing that. So in NL I'd leave some ammo left as a lot of people realize after the turn that they have <25% odds of hitting their flush and usually they don't have a hand that can call a bluff. Sucks. Tho I did see someone the other night crack a set of 9's on the flop with something like 3,8 off suit making the inside straight on the river!!

[BorisMcN]

I agree absolutely with the posters here... I've seen so many people bet with their flush draws, its getting scary.

Odds wise they are going to make their flush once in every 4 (and a bit) hands. And for her to raise your bet with a Qh draw was insane.

The options are, Fold to her raise or go all in. And its a 50-50 call for me (depending on mood/read on other players). 9s, Qs and 2 Suited can beat you at this point... 9s and Qs would be raised preflop. 2 suited is very possible as well, like KQs or even QJs.

As to bad players congratulating each other on horrific plays... I've really tried to encourage them to play bad when I want to CAPS shout "frickin moron WTF are you doing raising with..." etc etc. Now I shout at the screen a little bit, then smile and type "Wow... you are one dangerous opponent, well played" or "Nice play. I figured you had a strong hand" (or anything that will encourage their belief they are a good poker player, rather than just a lucky poker player

Then I'll friends list em, make notes and hope to meet them in a ring game before they lose all their poker money to someone else