Is it a Call or a Raise?

[DP_Machine]

I was playing in a casino a few weeks ago on a 1/2 NL table. A player across the table from me, who was in early position tosses in a $5 red chip into the pot. Dealer moves action over to the next players as if it was only a call and the guy interrupts saying that it was a raise.

Mind you, this player looked like he didn't play in casinos much since he didn't declare his raise and that players toss in $5 chips as calls very frequently.

I just wanted to confirm that he did have to declare his raise in order for it to be legitimate. Would someone have to declare a raise if they put in a higher chip value, $25 into the pot as opposed to a $5 chip? Would the rule still apply when they have the right amount of chips to put in a call, but still throw in a higher chip anyways and remain silent?

Just trying to clarify this just in case I run into this situation in a game when I'm dealing at a stag or home-game. Thanks for your help!

[poker_bill]

From Roberts Rules of Poker:

15. If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called. Example: In a $3-$6 game, when a player bets $6 and the next player puts a $25 chip in the pot without saying anything, that player has merely called the $6 bet.

Roberts Rules of Poker

[HalfSugar]

The WSOP does not play like that. If you watch the episode of this year's main event which focuses on Moneymaker, at one point he accidentally throws in too many chips while trying to call a bet. Because he throws in more than half of a min-raise, they make him top it up to a full min-raise!

I was stunned by this ruling because he had made no movements or said anything to suggest he meant to raise so I figured it would stand as a flat call. Bizarre if you ask me.

[Gunslinger]

I think the difference there, Geno, might be ONE larger denomination chip versus multiple chips. That's just a guess, though.

[supafrey]

I think the difference there, Geno, might be ONE larger denomination chip versus multiple chips. That's just a guess, though.

This answer is half correct =) (half a cookie!)

While the idea so far has been correct... as in, if you put ONE larger denom. chip in without any verbal it counts as a call, that's not the only thing that's going on in the WSOP hand...

In NL cash games at casinos, if you use ONE chip to raise, with no verbal, it's a call.

In NL cash games at casinos, if you use MULTIPLE chips to raise and NO verbal and the amount is NOT ENOUGH for the min-raise, the dealer will tell you that you raised incorrectly and only count it as a CALL.

Example: in a 5/10nl game, someone raises utg to 50 with a small stack of 5 dollar chips. Realizing I only have green chips (25 buck ones) I toss in 3 chips and say RAISE. The dealer will take my 3 green chips and hand me back 1, telling me that the raise amount was insufficent but that I have now CALLED the action.

In FL cash games at casinos, if you use MULTIPLE chips to raise and NO VERBAL, AND the amount you have put in is atleast 50% MORE than the original raise then you MUST min-raise. If it is less than 50% more than the original raise, you MUST call.

In SOME NL TOURNEYS, they use the FL cash game version of the rule, where multiple chips + no verbal > 50% = FORCED min-raise.

[raisebot]

I think the difference there, Geno, might be ONE larger denomination chip versus multiple chips. That's just a guess, though.

Example: in a 5/10nl game, someone raises utg to 50 with a small stack of 5 dollar chips. Realizing I only have green chips (25 buck ones) I toss in 3 chips and say RAISE. The dealer will take my 3 green chips and hand me back 1, telling me that the raise amount was insufficent but that I have now CALLED the action.

Whatever dealer made that action a call is 100% wrong.

You said raise, so a raise is binding. However, since you threw in an incorrect amount, you are now forced into a min raise. So you'd actually be making it $90, whether you like it or not. (Initial raiser raised $40, so now you have to raise an additional $40)

[supafrey]

I thought the order I wrote that in clearly denoted someone tossing in the chips FIRST, and then lagging behind with the raise verbally =/

Unless this is a rule I've only experienced on the north side of the border, I'm almost certain i'm correct. This exact question came up last night at the casino before I wrote these scenarios.

[raisebot]

I thought the order I wrote that in clearly denoted someone tossing in the chips FIRST, and then lagging behind with the raise verbally =/

Unless this is a rule I've only experienced on the north side of the border, I'm almost certain i'm correct. This exact question came up last night at the casino before I wrote these scenarios.

Well, yeah- if you throw in the chips first, and THEN say raise, house rules will then prevail. Generally speaking, if you throw in either half or more than a proper raise, in a cash game, then it will be a raise. In a tourney, it's usually the same, but I'll always call over floor and let them make the decision, since I've gotten different rulings depending on who's on floor.


But there's always a gray area- think of a 1/2 game, the SB being $1. On his option to fold/call/raise, say he just throws in a single $5 red chip, doesn't say a word, and doesn't take his initial $1 back- is that a raise or a call? Perhaps it's the wrong approach, but I'll usually ask that player if he's calling or raising; although floor will generally rule that it's just a call (again, all floor people aren't always consistent, YMMV)

But according to your previous post, I assumed you meant throwing in your chips and saying raise simultaneously.

[Jauron]

I feel bad for some newbies to casino play especially in tourneys where they don't' give you enough chips or change.

I watched on guy early who clearly had the change to put in the blind, or to even call with the one higher chip throw in a big denomination chip, his biggest in fact it was ruled a call. The guy was pretty upset and it was clear he had a big hand.

Tonight I saw somebody make the mistake of saying "I call and raise" dumb dumb dumb, it was ruled a call and the other guy got there cheap.

[MrDarling]

In my last live MTT I was going to steal the blinds with A2o, but didn't announced a raise. I put a stack of chips in and was about to put another stack when I was warned by the player in the Sb that I string bet.
He tried to make it like I called, but I suggested since I put more chips then a call its at least a min bet. The floor manager agreed with me and luckily everyone thought I had a big hand and folded.

[HalfSugar]

I think this thread reminds me that if my chip denoms are not right for my raise, I will continue to specify to the amount of the raise every time!

Anyone who says 'call and raise' deserves what they get really although people growing up playing home games with ma and pa probably got used to them saying "I will see you bet and raise you X".