It gets better, right? Right?!?!

[kainARGH]

Sorry but I'm gonna go ahead and confirm this as not accurate.

No need to be sorry. I honestly wasn't sure, but it seemed like a good suggestion. I don't play FL in casinos. Only NL. Thank you for clarifying though. I would hate to be giving bad advice.

I guess more so sorry , that it isnt true lol :D

I rememebr back first ever playing casino 2/4 , and getting so frusterated. Not knowing much about poker , all I knew was to play tight and fold alot , and I got miserable that so many people called to the river. If I couldnt get lucky , I couldnt win , and I was angry. I remember moving up in limits hopeing what you said would be true


Alas , It wasn't.



*edit*

You guys were serious about raising on the river after getting raised twice after my original bet? Maybe that's a weakness in my game, I never re-raise a raise on the river if I don't have the nuts, I'll simply call.

Dead serious , and here is why.


You lose to quads once every 1000 times you have the second best hand possible , nut full house. Thats not an exact number , but its VERY RARE. Now , if everytime this scenario came up , you haveing nut full house , them re-raiseing you on the river - and you simply call instead of 3 bet , you lose out on winning an extra bet about 99% of the time , or 999 times out of 1000 you lose an extra BB by not 3 betting. Now once every 1000 you save yourself 2 BB's by simply calling.

Its about as easy a value bet situation as you can encounter. If you don't know about value betting , look it up

[gobbledygeek]

I'm going to post a new thread in Basic Theory regarding re-raising on the river without the nuts cuz I'm interested in other opinions.

[kainARGH]

I'm going to post a new thread in Basic Theory regarding re-raising on the river without the nuts cuz I'm interested in other opinions.

value betting can be tricky , takes a little bit of knowledge of the other player and the situation. Theres usually alot to assess when attempting to correctly value bet.

The reason its so easy here is , the ONLY hand that can beat you is 4 of a kind. An extremly rare unlikly holding.

[gobbledygeek]

Ug, now limiting myself to one poker game a month if I lose $100 at a sitting, so I'm now done for May after losing $134 yesterday at 2/4 limit over 4 hours. I suck suck suck at this game, now averaging about -3.2BB/hour over first 55 hours or so.

Here's a couple of hands, the one I remember the most first:

HAND ONE:

Dealt Kc 7c on the button. Everyone calls so I call (not too loose, right?). Big blind then raises, everyone calls so I call (maybe too loose now?).

Flop: Ac Kd Jc

Tight lady in the small blind raises, buncha callers, I raise. Was the raise proper? I've got about a 1/3 chance of getting the high flush, the pair of kings doesn't hurt plus I know this flop is gonna get lottsa action for high pairs and straights.

Turn: Ac Kd Jc Jh

Tight lady in the small blind raises again, some callers, this time I just call. I definitely have the odds to call for my top flush. But at this point she is kinda freaking me out with the raises. But perhaps she only has the high straight?

River: Ac Kd Jc Jh 4c

Couldn't be a better river for me but tight lady doesn't even seem to notice the third club on the board and leads off again. One or two callers. At this point I have that sick feeling my top flush ain't good enough but I raise anyways (wasted BB?) and she timidly just calls.

Comments?


HAND TWO:

The drawback with playing in the casino is I can't quite remember the exact way the hands were played in order to post them later for comments. I know I've probably run into some bad luck but I figure I've also got to be pissing away money here and there on bad play, I just wish I could remember all the hands. Do other casino players take notes on their hands while they can remember them?

Anyways, I guess at how the hand was played:

Dealt: AJo, I think early position so I don't raise.

Flop: Q J 7, no flush

I raise early position, get a few callers.

Turn: Q J 7 10, no flush

I think I checked at this point and then called a raise. Me and two or three others in the hand still.

River: Q J 7 10 A, no flush

I check, one bet, one caller, I call.

Comments?


The one thing I definitely remember about that hand is that the caller had KK all along and therefore had the nuts. Why in the world would he only call the initial bet instead of raising? The only thing I could think of is that there was still one person (me) to call after him (or maybe one other person), so maybe he was afraid a raise would scare them off? This guy had won a bunch of money and would leave the table soon with at least 3 or 4 times what he started with, so he wasn't completely retarded. Or was he? Is this game total luck or what?

[Muck]

Ug, now limiting myself to one poker game a month if I lose $100 at a sitting, so I'm now done for May after losing $134 yesterday at 2/4 limit over 4 hours. I suck suck suck at this game, now averaging about -3.2BB/hour over first 55 hours or so.

Why not drop down limits and play on-line? You’ll get a lot more hours experience per $.

[gobbledygeek]

Why not drop down limits and play on-line? You’ll get a lot more hours experience per $.

Good suggestion. But I'm on the computer all day at work and don't really wanna hang out on it during my free time, plus I'm internetless at home. If they had lower limits in the casino I'd definitely drop down. I can afford the losses, I just can't really justify them.

[Muck]

Why not drop down limits and play on-line? You’ll get a lot more hours experience per $.

Good suggestion. But I'm on the computer all day at work and don't really wanna hang out on it during my free time, plus I'm internetless at home. If they had lower limits in the casino I'd definitely drop down. I can afford the losses, I just can't really justify them.

I started off in casinos too. If you’re confined to B&M casinos you could play tourneys, although it might not be the format you like it should get you more hours play per $ and it’s very easy to budget for.

As for your hands I don’t play FL much so can’t really comment I’m afraid.

[72o]

Regarding the original question: When I played my first real money game online i lost about 100 BB per hour. And it definitely became better by time.

Dealt: AJo, I think early position so I don't raise.

You definitely should raise 4 times the BB preflop in early position. AJ isn't the best hand there is but its pretty good and you cannot just sit there and wait for AK or a big pocket pair.

Turn: Q J 7 10, no flush

I think I checked at this point and then called a raise.

Fold.

River: Q J 7 10 A, no flush

Fold!

[Jefecaminador]

A wise man once said, you make more money off other peoples mistakes then you will by your own fancy play. That being said, its pretty hard to tell from just your descriptions on how you play, my best advice would be to find someone you know is a winning player and have them play with you for a few hours. They'll be able to point out a lot of flaws that you have. Limit is all about saving bets and getting extra bets out of your opponent. If you can save yourself even 1 bet for every 4 hand you lose, or gain an extra bet for every 4 hands you win, it can add up to a lot, prolly more than what you're losing at the moment. Poker is about making the best decision each time, and even if you're a little sloppy, it can add up in a hurry.

[craggoo]

I would like to make a few comments on B&M FL poker. It seems for me that everything comes in streaks. At one point, I had 12 wins in a row in $3/$6 coming out each time with a profit of $100+ (had a couple $500 in there as well). During this stretch, i pulled a few all nighters (on the weekends only... tons of fish on the weekends). During my all nighters, dude i have to tell you. There were so many ups and downs its scary. At one point, one night there was this one older gentlemen that would call all the way down with any PP no matter what the board read. I flopped two pair 3 or 4 times in a row only to have him hit his 2 outter those same 3 or 4 times in a row. Sometimes the poker gods just shit on you and laugh in your face. There are other times however that i can boast the same luck (not 2 outters but something else amazing). The thing is in FL if you raise pre-flop you have to continue betting all the way through regardless of if you have it or not. If i raise pre-flop with AK (which of course i will) im going to continue betting it all the way through regardless if i hit or not. The reason for this is simple: the hand where i have AA and people think "oh he just has AK again im check calling him all the way down" i clean up that hand. Or any other pot for that matter. I dont just raise with face cards, i raise with suited connectors to just to throw off people. This is what you have to be thinking: "If you can call with it you can certainly raise with it". One of the best hands i had recently in $3-$6 FL was 8d7d. I raise under the gun, the WHOLE table calls. Flop is 965. Flop the nuts and people think "goold ol' AK is a loser here". I have 7 callers all the way down because they believe im just betting with high cards. Slowplay is also a key in FL. I don't mean slowplay by not raising AA, KK, etc preflop. I mean if you flop a set slow-playing it to perfection. One of my most recent hands that i had in $3-$6 FL was 99 in the BB. I think there are 5 limpers and a raise on the button. I call of course. I flop top set and im thinking what i can do to get the most value out of the hand. There is one person in the hand that flopped a set of 7's (the button). There are 2 best on the flop, i just smooth call. The turn pairs the board so theres no way i can be beat. I do a check-raise on the river which happens to get capped at 4 bets. That pot was one of the bigger ones that night @ just under $175. Another thing i've noticed in FL... sometimes you really do have to go for miracles... by that i mean runner flushes. The only time i go for hands like that would be with 2 overcards on the flop (like AQ). Think about it this way: if you hit your A or Q you're probably good. If you turn the nut flush draw and hit it on the river, your hand will be perfectly disguised. No one will expect the flush since people dont expect you to go for it. The best thing to do is do the opposite of what your opponents expect. The moment you become a predictable player is the moment you will not get action on your big hands. Sorry this is all kind of jumbled together. I hope it helped.
-Cragg

[Jefecaminador]

Um, I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of what you just said. In limit the bets you win are the bets you save. And while occasionally betting all the way down with AK when you don't hit can have its positives, doing it the majority of the time isn't a good thing. For all the times you dont hit with AK, how many times do you think you'll get paid off with an AA? Surely its nowhere near one to one. It's good to have a loose image in limit, but it seems like your advocating playing like a maniac, which isnt good.

[craggoo]

I'm simply advocating that if you show strength preflop you show it after the flop too. If everytime you raise AK you miss and check on the flop. People are going to know when you have it and when you dont. A lot of the hands that i play when i raise preflop since i usually end up playing with a lot of the same ppl ALWAYS pay off my high PP's, sets, etc because they alawys assume that its AK which misses that flop. There is no way people can really put me on hands when im betting it all the way through. Now of course, if someone check-raises me on the turn and i still have just ace high im going to fold there. I think of it this way: for all the times that i miss with AK, im going to make at least double it back with the times i hit. I generally have either really big nights where im moving up constantly or nights where im really stale. Aggression is key in FL The only thing i dont advocate that i think was mentioned somewhere in this thread is raising on draws. ~25% (im not exactly sure of the percent but its somewhere around there) of draws (open ended straight draws, flush draws) will hit. If you have position then i like to raise on draws but otherwise its check-call and check-raise if i hit it on the turn or the river. I hope this was helpful.
-Cragg

[72o]

When I started to play (online) poker I considered myself a pretty tight player, too. But after I opened the statistics window I was facing the truth: I played almost every second hand, at least every third! A real tight player would play only one out of five hands!

Dealt Kc 7c on the button. Everyone calls so I call (not too loose, right?).

That is very loose play! Playing a rag ace or king on the button is only a good idea when all players before you folded so only you and the blinds are still in the hand. And its only good if you raise on the button to drive out at least the small blind to end up heads-on. And even then it's difficult to play unless you don't know how to ace out an opponent. I won't recommend such play to a beginner. If everybody called and "you called too" this is not only loose but poor play. Play big hands from AK to QJ, big pocket pairs from AA to maybe TT and occasionally check from the big blind. That will make you play about 20% of your hands. Basically, that's the way a pro plays at a loose table.

I give you an advice: Once you have learned how to play tight say to yourself "I'm a tight player and everybody at the table knows it. When I hit the flop I hit something big and if you want to win a hand against me you must be either stupid or very lucky!" And if you play quality hands only and you hit the flop you will almost always hit something that is worth a strong bet. Make a big bet after the flop to drive out the smart players and to make the stupid players pay. As Howard Lederer put it "If you play a hand then play it like you mean it!"