It gets better, right? Right?!?!

[gobbledygeek]

So after reading up on Texas Hold'em for a while, I've decided to dive right in and start playing 2/4 limit recreationally at the local casino. I've had 8 sessions (average 2.25 hours each) and come out a loser each time, averaging -3.125 BB per hour.

Now obviously I'm a newbie and can be expected to make some mistakes (some of which I've already recognized), but so far it seems to be a rather frustrating game. I'm a fairly tight player (especially when compared to most of the players I've played with so far, who seem to almost play any two cards) so I play very few hands and then end up folding a lot of these after the flop when it is no help plus dangerous. Right now I'm probably averaging about 1 won hand an hour.

So, things get better, right? I've only played for 18 hours so I guess that ain't much of a sample. But sometimes I find it a little frustrating to play this game when the only hand I seem to be in is the unraised big blind while others go in with 94o and flop their full house.

[supafrey]

You don't really have a question anywhere here =)

[gobbledygeek]

Yah, it was probably more a rant than a question.

[supafrey]

do ... do you .. do you have a question?

[galderon]

I think the question is: Will I eventually become less frustrated and more successful with my poker playing?

The answer is: It depends. For some people, poker just isn't a good fit. For others, it's a fun recreational activity, but not a source of income. For still others, it's very lucrative and fun.

I'm pretty much in the second category. I have fun with my buds and I usually place in the money in my home games, but I'm terrible online and I don't enjoy limit.

[gobbledygeek]

I think the question is: Will I eventually become less frustrated and more successful with my poker playing?

I guess that is my overall question. I'm not looking to supplement my normal income playing poker, I'm just looking to more or less hold my own / break even and have some fun.

I guess specific questions would be:

1) Is winning about one hand an hour average for the tight player?

2) How bad is -3.125 BB per hour? Certainly sounds bad to me and doesn't seem like I'm holding my own.

2) I guess 18 hours is too small a sample time and I'll have to play a lot more to find our where I really stand?

[tame_deuces]

I think the question is: Will I eventually become less frustrated and more successful with my poker playing?

I guess that is my overall question. I'm not looking to supplement my normal income playing poker, I'm just looking to more or less hold my own / break even and have some fun.

I guess specific questions would be:

1) Is winning about one hand an hour average for the tight player?

2) How bad is -3.125 BB per hour? Certainly sounds bad to me and doesn't seem like I'm holding my own.

2) I guess 18 hours is too small a sample time and I'll have to play a lot more to find our where I really stand?

1. I have no idea, it seems low to me but I guess it depends on how fast the action is, I haven't played limit live at full tables (not too common with FL around these parts), only NL and I'm guessing NL moves somewhat faster.

2. That seems really bad. If you had been playing for a long time.

3. 18 hours doesn't tell you anything.

[Muck]

1) Is winning about one hand an hour average for the tight player?

2) How bad is -3.125 BB per hour? Certainly sounds bad to me and doesn't seem like I'm holding my own.

2) I guess 18 hours is too small a sample time and I'll have to play a lot more to find our where I really stand?

All of the calculations in your questions are based on this 18 hour dataset. This is too small to make any fair analysis, some people on here have had bad runs that last over 18 days.

You realise that what you’re doing at the moment is buying experience, that’s good. However, with that in mind you might want to consider switching to lower limits (these may only be available on-line) since the experience has the same value but costs you less.

Keep up the reading, keep playing, keep listening and keep learning. Given time things should improve.

[gobbledygeek]

Update:

I FINALLY won a session in my 12th try, 18.5BB over 5 hours. That brings my average losings down to a bit more respectable -1.75BB per hour but I've only played less than 30 hrs.

I may be a relative newbie to this game, and maybe I'm outta place saying this, but it seems to me this game (2/4 limit) requires a tremendous amount of both patience AND luck.

Last night for the first 2 hours I was only dealt 2 of the top 40 starting hands (A9s and KJo) but the flop took me out soon after. Just to play some hands other than the unraised big blind and not be labelled as ultratight I would limp in from late position with low straight possibilities but again always have to get out on the flop. But finally the tide turned, I was dealt some hands and even more importantly was helped / not hurt by the flop and made my money.

The weird thing is that I don't think I played any differently from my first 11 sessions. Luck seems to have a very large hand in this game. Even looking at the players around me, the guy who was killed with pocket 6s, flop 8 6 x and loses to the guy with pocket 8s. Or the guy who three times that night whose pocket suited cards is lower than someone elses pocket suited cards (ok, maybe once, maybe twice, but three times?). Or the guy who sits down at his first casino table, is dealt AA as his first hand (no lie), and AQs along with KK in his first half dozen hands (wins them all). Or the guy a couple days before who is dealt KK, JJ, AKs in his first 5 hands and loses them all. In each of these cases I woulda played my hands pretty much the same way they all did and woulda been rewarded/killed accordingly.

So, finally, the question: If I'm not playing like a total retard (which I very well could be), how much does LUCK play into this game?

[galderon]

I may be a relative newbie to this game, and maybe I'm outta place saying this, but it seems to me this game (2/4 limit) requires a tremendous amount of both patience AND luck.

You have it mostly right. It requires luck to win this hand or make a profit this session, but it requires patience (and skill) to make a profit in the long run.

[supafrey]

Question:

Would you claim to "get" how much luck/skill was involved in an activity after 30 or so hours if it WASN'T poker?

Could you "get" how to be a winning basketball player after 4-5 days of playing? Snooker? Darts? Chess?

[gobbledygeek]

Question:

Would you claim to "get" how much luck/skill was involved in an activity after 30 or so hours if it WASN'T poker?

Could you "get" how to be a winning basketball player after 4-5 days of playing? Snooker? Darts? Chess?

Point certainly well taken about the amount of time I've played. And I don't mean to come off as insulting, especially to those (and you too?) who've played the game a long time. In fact, it's their opinion I'm most interested due to them having logged the hours that probably gives them a better idea of the answer.

I certainly couldn't tell you how to be a winning basketball/hockey/pool/darts/chess/etc. after only a few hours. But I think I would conclude fairly early on that luck doesn't have a huge part to play in those games. Sure, you can get the occasional bad bounce in some sports games that'll cost you, but in the end skill will usually always win. If you took the top 100 players of any sport in the world and put them against each other, who's going to win? In almost every case, the one who plays the best at that time; if two guys play at the top of their own game then the one with the most skill will win (usually). But if you took the top 100 texas holdem players in the world and put them in the same game, who would win (even in the long run)? Personally, I'd bet on the guy who's dealt the best cards.

I dunno, maybe I'm also comparing it to the Blackjack I'm playing because with Blackjack it is obvious as to when you've played good. I'm just a basic strategy player (no card counting) so against my casino I'm approximately at a 0.6% disadvantage. And yet with just flat betting $5 dollars each hand and playing only this perfect basic strategy, I'm up $500 after 50 hours. Is it my play? Well, I am playing perfect (as far as I know) but it's obviously the luck. I know that the more hours I play the more likely the house'll take my money. But there's also the chance luck will keep smiling on me as it has up to now.

Any other opinions?

[golddog]

The luck factor is likely to decrease (Since you know enough to startout tight, I'm going to assume you've got a pretty good head on your shoulders and understand the basic things like pot odds, position, et cetera at some level).

Simply by gaining experience, you'll be more able to know when something's gone wrong and you need to get out. But also, you'll be more able to know when something hasn't gone right for you, but it didn't go right for anyone else either, and use that to your advantage.

Also, you'll be able to understand the game at a different level. I'm no match for many on this board, but looking back, it's amazing what I thought I understood.

Keep studying, think about what plays worked, what didn't, and why.

[supafrey]

If you took the top 100 players of any sport in the world and put them against each other, who's going to win? In almost every case, the one who plays the best at that time; if two guys play at the top of their own game then the one with the most skill will win (usually). But if you took the top 100 texas holdem players in the world and put them in the same game, who would win (even in the long run)? Personally, I'd bet on the guy who's dealt the best cards.

While an interesting analogy, not necessarily an appropriate one.

You're assuming that there's a huge amount of variance in athletic accomplishments based on better skill, teamwork, and a million other invisible factors that are utilized that specific day...

And you're saying that this is simply not the case with poker, because luck will often be the deciding factor between the top players..

BUT, even with the set of assumptions you're going by, you're ignoring a much more obvious and possible point:

Perhaps there are simply far less "skills" to be learned in poker than a dynamic, team based collective sport or game? These top 100 poker studs could merely have learned the good majority of these skills, so the difference is small. Ask poker pros (or even lucksack pros like our own ScanX... *cough*) and you'll hear the same thing more often than not: they avoid playing on tables with other strong players. The margin of profit is too tight.

[HalfSugar]

Play some 3/6 next time. You'd think it'd be no different to 2/4 but since the big bet is over 5 bucks, people do think twice sometimes, though not very often. "OMG, that's another 6 bucks! I fold"