Legal move or not?

[K-rug]

Whoops I posted my original post in the wrong forum. Heh... I'll delete that one.

We had an interesting debate during our game last night about what constitutes a raise. More specifically "one move".

Player A: Bets
Player B: Has a bunch of chips in his hands ready for action (ten $2 chips, several $5 chips and a couple of green $25). He announces a raise. He then put the call chips out (five $2 chips) in front of his cards (no action line). Then he picks the call chips up. Because he was holding a lot of chips in his hands he put back in his rack the remaining $2 and $5 chips he wasn't going to use for the call or raise.

He then put the call chips back down on the felt and dropped two green $25 chips (for the raise) on them counting them as he dropped them on his stack. Again just for clarification these were chips he already had in his hand and he did not go back and pick up more chips from his rack. He then picked that stack up from the felt and reversed it so the green chips were on the bottom and pushed it forward.

So the first question is, did what he do constitute one additional move for his raise after he called? Should the raise have been $50? Should it have been a raise of $10 since those were the first chips to hit the felt that he let go of after he picked up his call bet even though $10 was the call and he was stacking his chips? What if he made several piles of chips in front of him, is that one move? Is a move considered your hand moving back and forth across the action line and getting chips or when your chips hit the felt?

I just wanted to see what others thoughts are for the situation.

Me opinion:
Should he have picked his call stack up? Probably not. Doesn't change the fact he announced raise. Should he have put the excess chips from his hand back in his rack. Doesn't matter as he wasn't reaching for more or making more than one move. Are the chips he has in his hands in play just because they are across the action line? No, he hasn't put them on the table. Should he have picked up his call and raise stack and then flipped it so the larger denominations were on the bottom? He had already taken his hand off the raised stack so it signifies his action was over. So it doesn't matter.

[K-rug]

I'm trying to consolidate my original post. Sorry Geno!

This rule is in place so people will not use weird betting movements to induce reaction from their opponents. (ie lets say you announce a raise, drop one chip and look at opponent reaction, then drop another and so on)

So in a home game, unless someone does weird stuff too often I'll just let it go.


That said, if you want to be strict really strict. Since you describe a pushing movement once all the counting was done it does seem like 'villain' was counting his chips off the 'betting' zone which seems to me like its ok!

Player B was counting the chips as he was stacking them. The stacking was taking place in front of his cards in the "betting zone". Villian is a bad term too. I know the guy and know he just had to many chips in his hands was trying to not drop them. He stacks and counts his chips before he pushes them. He didn't plop one chip, look up snicker, plop another, look up at his opponent and ponder the situation then plop another. It was; drop $25, drop $50, say "$60 total". Happened as fast as you can read this.


But using your take on things if the chips are already in your hand, why can't you drop one, look, drop another? So are you saying that saying that stacking one chip is considered "one move". Could he keep grabbing from his stack and putting back chips from his hands multiple times so long as he doesn't drop the single chip on to the felt and is just holding them?

[MrDarling]

if there was a betting line he could do what ever he wants as long as he doesn't pass the line. So he could stack chip and even look for reaction.

Have no idea what is the official rule, but in a friendly home game I wouldn't even consider this bad manners.

[K-rug]

When there is no betting line, it is generally accepted that your cards are the betting line. It is a rule we've gone by and most place I've been without a line use that as well.

So all of this occured in front of his cards.

Using the WSOP official rules (http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/pdfs/ ... les.07.pdf)

[code]50. In no-limit or pot-limit, a raise must be made by a.) placing the full amount in the pot in
one motion or b.) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips
into the pot or c.) verbally declaring “raiseâ€

[HalfSugar]

When there is no betting line, it is generally accepted that your cards are the betting line.

I was in a home game on Saturday night where there were quite a few chips in front of everyone and I was practically the only player playing their cards in front of their chips. When I challenged someone about it because I acted out of turn due to not being able to see his cards over his chips, a few of them said that they have always played that the only time they move their cards in front of their chips is when they have folded The idea of a betting line seemed to escape them enirely.

[K-rug]

I was in a home game on Saturday night where there were quite a few chips in front of everyone and I was practically the only player playing their cards in front of their chips. When I challenged someone about it because I acted out of turn due to not being able to see his cards over his chips, a few of them said that they have always played that the only time they move their cards in front of their chips is when they have folded The idea of a betting line seemed to escape them enirely.

Bah... that's the reason why I'll be making a major version release to my rules in the upcoming week. Things like that won't even be questionable. Even my one year old niece will be able to understand it.

But at least you knew.

[MrDarling]

when I play a home game I just tell everyone what to do.

Being from Israel around all the Belgian wusses helps.

[pat1971]

In our game if you announce raise you make a raise.
I think if say the betting line is usually your cards and he was stacking chips in front of his cards and those two $25 chips hit the stack then its the bet.
As far as turning the chips over before sliding them in who knows. Maybe OCD but if he dropped then looked around and dropped another I would call string bet right there.