limping

[str1130]

this is a general theory kind of question, and open to any and all discussion. i recently finished my first read-through of Harrington on Holdem, and am starting to get a grasp on the M concept he presents in the books.

at a point which Dan doesn't really specify, the nuances of deep stack poker fade away, and neither open limping nor limping behind others becomes acceptable. to word it differently, after a stack becomes so short, preflop play should shift to a push-or-fold style of play, with an edge given to the first one in the pot after the cards are dealt.

so, what do you all think? how short do we need to be in tournament chips before limping needs to be abandoned altogether?

[UrAteUp]

When your M<10 it's time to start pushing.

I never limp a hand I want to play. Too often this style comes back to bite you in the butt. Either your calling a later position raise with less then perfect cards or your limping into a pot with a hand that requires isolation to maintain it's strength.

[Kemics]

i think the exception comes in hyper/turbo sng's where ive been sitting with 8bb but still way above the average. Like chip lead has 11 bb or something like that

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

i think the exception comes in hyper/turbo sng's where ive been sitting with 8bb but still way above the average. Like chip lead has 11 bb or something like that

That doesn't make it any better to limp. In fact, it probably makes it worse.

[Kemics]

ack, sorry i meant to alter the the "look for any hand to shove mentality", can afford to play it a little more carefully.

[Ciso_B]

i think you can get away with limping if you're stack is 15bb +...reason i think itsok with 15 is, cos i hate raise/folding with a stack of that size.period.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

i think you can get away with limping if you're stack is 15bb +...reason i think itsok with 15 is, cos i hate raise/folding with a stack of that size.period.

Yeah at that point I really prefer looking to shove over someone's opening bet, or limping with varying intentions depending who/what stacks are behind you.

[golddog]

Don't forget the other players as well. If you're at a bunch of passive players, no sense limping unless you really want action. Just keep raising and taking the dead money until you've built yourself up to a point you can play again.

[jimmer]

You also need to consider 'at what point in the tourney you are'. If you are near the money, in the money, playing at a table with less players etc etc etc

[miaowmiaowchowface]

ewwwww limping

[Gogie]

The problem with limping:

Down to the final 2 in a 45 player SNG on FT last night ($75 buy-in). I'm the big blind (SB is the button). I have about a 3-2 chip lead (not huge, especially given the blinds are now 1K - 2K). I'm dealt 5-4os. Villain calls my BB and I of course check. Flop comes out something like 964. I check, villain min bets $2k, I call. Turn is a 5 . I check, hoping he gets greedy now, but he only min bets again, so I decide to just call. River 4 . I bet out about half the pot, he immediately pushes and I immediately call. He turns over AA!

I know he was just trying to get some action with his AA, but he was giving me every opportunity to suck out on him. I think if I'm in his shoes I at least min raise preflop (the blinds are worth stealing at this point) and certainly bet out big on the flop, again recognizing that the pot is large enough to take down at that point anyway.

As an aside, when I made the final table I was the short stack (I had about 4000 chips) and only the top 6 got paid. I had a lot of work ahead of me but managed to sweat it out! One memorable hand was when I looked down to see QT suited in the SB. I still had about 4000 chips but my M was below 5, so I was looking for just about anything to shove. It was folded to me, so I insta-shove. BB is the big stack by far (around 23K chips) and he insta calls with something like AJos. I flop a Q and hold on to increase my stack to over 9K (comfortably in the money) and roll on to victory. The guy I sucked out on made a comment to the effect that he figured I was pushing on a flush draw. (I actually wasn't looking for the flush, I just wanted to have 2 live cards if he called, which is what I got. Being suited just gave me a few more outs.) Later on he'd gone a bit card dead so he says something like "Come on dealer, give me some cards so I can get my chips back from that donkey beside me". He's the guy I ended up heads up with. Sometimes even "donkeys" get lucky!

[str1130]

^ nice post. i bet it was pretty gratifying to see the AA and to win a big pot when it was misplayed so badly, lol.

The kind of limping I'm referring to, though, is way prior to when the tourney gets to heads-up play. Let me give an example; sorry if it's a bit cliche.

Effective stacks are ~20 BB at a loose-passive table, no antes yet. After a couple of early position limpers, are we passing up an edge by limping behind with 87s on the button or 33 in the cutoff? With an M of around 13, raising these speculative hands (even with position) and building a big pot with a hand that is unlikely to improve on the flop seems like a poor play to me.

However, by calling, we typically get to "see a flop", barring when one of the blinds sticks in a big raise preflop. Surely limping can't be the worst play every time, right?

[mortaleclipse]

ewwwww limping

basically this in a nutshell

[Ciso_B]

Raising is very often the better policy, but I dont adhere to any raise/fold policy tbh. Like i said, if you're short you cant afford to limp, and its bad play, but if im on a table with players taht will re raise all the time, i ll take a chance and limp/call some hands i wanna see a flop with. Sure , you dont have the lead in a hand but if the limp/call doesn't really hurt or affect your stack if you have to give it up then why not?