Loose Game Starting Hands

[CardPlayer55]

Lately, my frineds and I have started playing cash games of No-Limit Hold'em rather than tournaments. The games are very loose when it comes to others starting hands at the table. Many will play any suited cards just cause their suited. Many will play connecters just cause their connected. They will also play hands like J2,Q2,K4, and everyone will always play with an ace. There is ussually one aggressive player at the table and most others are passive. I would like to know which style I should be playing. I beleive if I play tight-aggressive, I will still get wooped because people will read me easily and they will always river me. I don't know what to do. I have been losing money to players that i beleive I am much better than. I know I have more knowledge than most of the players but I can't seem to you use it to my advantage. I've done like I have read and played draws in hold'em games but U never end up with to many good draw wins after a game to make up for the money I lost going for them.

[b]In the loose games that i play, does it all just come down to luck?[/b] If you have any helpful information which can help me, it would be greatly appreicated.

[yeltzen]

Dude, you're hopeless. Sorry. Three things tell me this.
1) You had the nerve to ask if it just comes down to luck.
2) You say that people will "river you anyways" no matter what you do.
3) You're only concerned about starting hands.

Bye.

[fundmyhabit]

yeltzen--

you seem overly harsh lately.. whats up?

[yeltzen]

Just being honest.

[fundmyhabit]

To each his own...

[ScanX]

yeltzen why dont u just stay away from keyboard if it's for posting pointless comments trying to belittle someone instead of helping him ?

Cardplayer55 :

I suggest you get your hands on a book that will answer your questions about starting hands and why luck or river aint the main factors that make you win/lose at this game.

I suggest u get the book : "Winning Low Limit Holdem" by Lee Jones

That will tell you which hands to play depending on your position, how to play on flop, turn and river.

u can also start looking at this chart :

http://www.flopturnriver.com/chart_starting_hands.html

IN GENERAL :

from early position u can play groups 0, 1 and 2

from middle position u can play groups 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5

from late position u can play all the groups.

Remember I'm only talking about fixed limit poker.

Also, if the game is real loose, you have to tighten your play, so you have to reduce your starting hands from the groups I've given you.

As this is too long and complicated to explain in just a forum thread, I really urge you to get books, starting with the one I mentionned above.

Oh, and dont listen to yeltzen, noone is hopeless.

There ain't no stupid questions, just stupid people.

[proudcapitalist]

He said NL...

[JohnnyCache]

yeltzen--

you seem overly harsh lately.. whats up?

no shit dude. You've been really laying it down hard lately man.

[snoogins47]

"Also, if the game is real loose, you have to tighten your play, so you have to reduce your starting hands from the groups I've given you. "

Odd, I had a reply all worked up here and apparently it didn't post properly.

Time to slightly disagree with the Great Belgian. If your opponents are in general, playing more hands, than you can, in general, play more hands profitably as well, since your hands will on average be better than theirs.

The easiest comparison I can make to illustrate this would be to imagine a game of single card poker. Only ONE SUIT in the deck, high card wins.

I could go through theoretical example after theoretical example, but I'm just going to do one.

Imagine you are playing a game where both players ante $0.50, and you are last to act. We will pretend raising does not exist, and that the only bet that can be made is $1.

If we have a very tight opponent, who will only bet with the A, K, or Q...

You clearly call if you have the A. Calling with the K is profitable. You're 50/50 to win against his range of hands (if you have the K, he either has the A or the Q), and you CANNOT call with any other hand profitably. 85% of your hands would make calling A LONG TERM LOSING PLAY.

Now let's illustrate another extreme. This player will bet with any card. His starting requirements = that he HAS none, any card is good for a bet.

What is the optimum play against him? What should you call, and what should you fold?

Getting 2:1, your optimum play includes calling with every card down to the 7. The 6 would be risk neutral (holding the 6, you're a 2:1 dog to win the pot, which precisely equals your payout, so do it enough times and you'll break even.)

Against this very loose opponent, only 30% of your hands are money losers. You can call with 70% of your hands, and make a good amount of money.

This clearly applies directly to hold'em. The problem here lies in the matter of HOW your opponents are loose, and how good they are as players compared to you.

If your opponents are loose, hyperaggressive, and solid players, playing very tight might not be a bad idea. The key is: while more hands are profitable against loose players, you can often find yourself in marginal situations, for a large amount of money. If you're bound to make mistakes here whereas your opponents will not, then you should not only tighten up, you should find a new game

Also of note, is that against loose players, and especially aggressive loose players, fluctuations will be much much greater.

So, to a beginning player, playing tight in a loose game is probably best. But if you're more skilled than your opponents post flop, it's leaving money on the table.

Now, I think part of the idea here about "playing tighter" means "not bluffing as much." And this is very true. If somebody's most common mistake is that they call too much, you should be betting your good/marginal hands much more liberally, and bluff hardly ever. In that sense, "tight" is right in a loose game.

[JohnnyCache]

I've done well in loose games by drawing more, drawing cheap, and drawing to the win. Of course, to do that you have to know when to let go.

[ScanX]

I just used the common sentence you will find in about every poker book :

"Against loose players, you play tight. Against tight players, you play loose."

Although I missed the other adjective that qualifies a player and that makes the whole difference :

if the player is loose agressive (maniac) you play tighter preflop.

if the player is loose passive (calling station) you can play looser preflop.

The maniac wont let you breathe a second, so you gotta make sure to show him the best hand at the end...so your selection of starting hands is very important.

Mind you, your 1 card game explanation is a bit too simplistic as you assume there is only 1 round of betting...while there are 4 in holdem.

And you don't have a made hand with the 2 cards you're being dealt in holdem...while your hand is made after having received your 1 card in your game :)

[snoogins47]

I just used the common sentence you will find in about every poker book :

"Against loose players, you play tight. Against tight players, you play loose."

Although I missed the other adjective that qualifies a player and that makes the whole difference :

if the player is loose agressive (maniac) you play tighter preflop.

if the player is loose passive (calling station) you can play looser preflop.

The maniac wont let you breathe a second, so you gotta make sure to show him the best hand at the end...so your selection of starting hands is very important.

Mind you, your 1 card game explanation is a bit too simplistic as you assume there is only 1 round of betting...while there are 4 in holdem.

And you don't have a made hand with the 2 cards you're being dealt in holdem...while your hand is made after having received your 1 card in your game

Well of course hold'em is more complicated, but the general idea is the same. If the opponent is playing a much wider range of hands, then intrinsically you can play a much wider range of hands profitably.

But yes, you know I'm right, and I know you're right, I just like to clarify things, argue semantics, and attack things from every angle.

You crazy Belgian.

[Ensano]

i may be able to offer some advice on this.. I played in a game like you described.. filled with maniac players and players who'll go with anything to the flop.. i found the most profitable way to play this game is tight, straightforeward play.. i'll assume for a moment that this is a regular (say weekly) game.. you're going to have to literally take these people to school.. pley fundamentally better than them week after week... start by just playing premium hands and high drawing hands.. (if the two cards don't add up to 20 or more then pass.. and you get 2 extra points for pairs.. so pocket 9s are ok)... and when you hit the flop you bet.. when you miss you check.. if they bet you pass.. the problem with such weak players is they're not savvy enough to realize scare cards.. they'll follow with bottom pair.. so you're not going to outplay anyone by bluffing like this.. make it painfully obvious what you're going.. so that they see you're only betting when you have a hand.. you probably will get slack from it (i was teased for a long time).. but eventually you'll start leaving with all their money... so their mouths will shut pretty fast... don't trap... don't slow play anything.. you want you table image to to reak straightforeward... and you have to play aggressively... if you have top pair.. you're not betting the min.. always bet the amount that's in the pot.. make it expensive for them to draw out on you.. make those leaks in their game become drains.. this way if they're chasing and inside straight draw and their only getting 2-1 return on their money.. they'll eventually lose it all.. yeah they'll hit it once and a while but they'll miss it far more times than that... eventually you'll notice everyone starting to tighten up.. at least against you.. when you start getting alot of foldouts this is a good thing.. they just graduated from you class.. now it's on to a new lesson... you start to loosen you requirements.. playing suited connectors.. and lower pocket pair.. trash hands are still of course trash hands.. but you can say.. raise with 6-7 suited on the button.. if you miss your flop.. you bet the amount thats in the pot.. and you'll see they'll all fold.. you've got to teach these people how to play before you can make any types of plays on them... i know.. thats what i did and i'm always the chip leader at the end of the night...

[ScanX]

start by just playing premium hands and high drawing hands.. (if the two cards don't add up to 20 or more then pass.. and you get 2 extra points for pairs.. so pocket 9s are ok)...

add up to 20 ?

is that blackjack or poker you're talking about ? :)

even if I think I get your point I don't really agree.

hands like AJo, KJo are the kind of hands that require position to be played...so u don't want to play them in early position.

99 = 18 + 2 because it's a pair ? :)

I seriously have NEVER heard or read something similar about evaluating a hand in poker.

Where have you learned such a thing ?

[Ensano]

you never heard about that?.. john vorhaus.. wrote a number of acticles and books about poker.. for the average poker player it's kinda dumbed down.. but it works great for beginners.. and you do have to use discresion.. you don't raise all in with A-10os on early position.. but it's a dumbed down system for starting hand requirements (you don't need sheets or charts at the table)..