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[lwestatbus]

As I've posted elsewhere I'm flexing my wings in some MTT SnGs. I need some insights into what I've been experiencing to see if it is normal or if I should be looking for leaks.

In general I do pretty well and get relatively deep into the tournament but eventually get eliminated or crippled on an all in. In 75% of the cases I'm ahead when I'm all in and it is my understanding that this is about as good a situation as you can hope for. And very few of these situations are in the face of scary boards where the draw out could have been predicted. Instead the drawouts against me are either runner-runner or making a turn/river set or two pair against my higher pair.

I'm not asking for advice on how to play my cards (as I clearly didn't provide enough information for you to evaluate) but on whether it is common to get eliminated in many tournaments by suck outs. I believe that I heard that the WSOP main event winners were generally all in 14 times during the tournament and it only takes one of these to go against you to be eliminated.

One last thought: Since these are really cheap buy-in tournaments am I likely to see a higher percentage of opponents all in with weak cards? I'm constantly amazed at some of the all in CALLS I see in these games.

[zaxxon23]

Last weekend, I chopped a $10 buyin pot to win $1100, which was quite nice. Throughout that tournament, I should have been gone right about the time everyone got in the money, but due to the fact that I kept getting short stack, I had no choice but to go all in on pretty much anything with an ace. Amazingly, I sucked out every single time, except for the very few situations where I actually had the best hand.

Since that tournament, I've played in another $180 worth of tournaments (most being $1 - $3 tournaments, but some $10 and $20 or so), and have been sucked out on 19 of 20 times when going in with the best hand. Luckily, I was able to win an $11.70 sat. to sunday million, which in essence puts me ahead again.

But the moral of the story here is that the suckouts on pokerstars (and could be all sites for that matter) are just outrageous. It seems like there are definative turns of luck, due solely to the random card generator. I find it amazing that I sucked out like 40 times in a row in one tournament, and have been sucked out 19 of 20 times in my allins after the tournament. I suppose it's nothing more then simple probabilities, but it seems incredible. I doubt we're the only people who experience this kind of situation.

[MrDarling]

I've been doing pretty ok in S&G lately but haven't played many MTT's so take it as you may :

I simply try to not gamble with all my chips if not necessary. I'll be happy to get all the chip in pre flop with A's or K's but other then that I try not to.
Same goes on the flop - I only push if I think it will get villain to fold and I have outs. if I have the best hand, why push, let him pay to draw, don't push him away.

Once I get SS its a different story and I will push with marginal hands hoping to win the blinds...

Now online, people tend to gamble much more. It is simply so easy (and cheap) to start a new game. Deep in MTT, I guess people call you with marginal hands when they have you well covered - which in it self is not a bad move by them. So try not to get too Short Stacked

[ninetensuited]

perfect example mr darling. tonight in the mtt i won. when we got down to the last 2 tables i called 3 short stacks all ins w/ 45s and offsuit and took all of them out. usually people are pushing w/ AQ or AJ, something that gives me 2 live cards

[wEbMaStEr]

Multi table sit n go's are precisely my area. If we're talking 2-5 tables then i think i can give you some advice.

This is just the way I play, not a definitive guide.

In a 5 table sit n go I like to try conserve my chips early on, if i'm playing a pot i want it to be a smallish pot, I don't feel it's +EV to be risking 1/3 to all of my chips early on without the nuts.

The blinds are so small that raising with AK, AQ etc is no guarantee to remove weaker starting hands. So if i don't flop big I will often let it go in a multi way pot.

Similiarly i will also limp with suited Ax, suited connectors, or just about any 2 cards as long as my risk is small.

In general tho I won't play that many hands in first few blind levels, I could be quiet happy not to play any hands at all for the first 20 mins. I don't feel the risk:reward ratio is worth it.

If you are usually making it deep before losing tho, I would say your early play is working already.

One of the most important things in any tourney is chipping up, if you get to a stage where you are finally all in with a big hand only to be sucked out on by a chip leader sucking out with rags then it's your fault really.

Chipping up, simply put, is stealing the blinds to increase your stack. You don't need cards to do this (altho you don't wanna go nutzo in case you get called) Raising in position with hands like any 2 face cards or mid/hi connectors can really increase your stack.

The 5 table sng sturcture allows some very good areas to chip up, when down to 21 players or so, the tables are short handed and almost every position is "in position" usually by this point the blinds are big enough to make a difference, work out what raise will get the blinds out of there and go to work.

Even the odd time you get called you will be heads up, your opp will miss the flop 2/3 of the time so a continuation bet can pick you up a very nice pot.

As soon as we drop to 18 payers tho i'll tighten right up.

Next good spot is obviously the bubble to go down to one table.

The thing i like most about these 45 player sng's are the payouts start at 7th place, this means if you make th final table you should cash.

How I play at ft depends on my chip position. If i'm lowish, then i'll just sit tight and pick my spots. (hopefully tho if you've chipped up successfully you won't be tooo low) Even if you are too low you can usually outlast a couple idiots to sneak into the cash. If you're one of the bigger stacks you can usually bully the lower stacks .

As ft progresses and you become more shorthanded then again start to chip up.

To sum up:

Play small pots when blinds are small

Steal in position when tables get short. (this is the advantage of playing 5 tables rather than true multi tables where tables never really get shorthanded)

Tighten back up when you're back to a full table. (altho you can still steal in position)

Force your opponent to play big pots when blinds get bigger (take them out of their comfort zone)

Try never to let yourself get so short that your raises aren't effective.

Get lucky when you're all in.

Hope some of that helps.

[MrDarling]

excellent advise Weby.

[rodders]

great post webby

[exit music]

When you have a big stack, you can lose all-ins and not lose. That's an important reason to play aggressively in the short-handed portion of the tournament. Build a stack, lose all-ins, win all-ins and then flipament until you win.

[lwestatbus]

Thanks Webby. Sorry not to have responded earlier but things have been busy. Anyway, a great post. I was sort of following your advice on the early play already--playing really marginal cards cheap and in position (or cheap and out of position if the table isn't too aggressive) and raking in big pots when I hit a huge (and improbable) hand.

I realize that my middle of the game play is problematic (since that's when I'm busing out ) for a couple of reasons. One, when I'm not getting a lot of good cards I'll often overvalue something like JJ and call an all in that I shouldn't be. Two, I'm not being active in playing even when I don't have cards (the chipping up as Webby put it). I'm sure this is costing me this opportunity and signaling the rest of the table that I do have something when I do get involved.

I've played about a dozen 2-table SnGs on Stars and still no cashes but I keep plugging away at it.

Thanks also to MrDarling and zaxxon23 for their insights. Both were helpful.

Thanks again.