Online Multi-Table Tournaments

[JimTheBullet]

I don't think it is a good idea to be focusing on "the luck factor". How many times does Doyle mention it in Super System? Did Helmuth / Chan / Ungar thank their luck when they won the world series? Sure, there are hands where luck is a factor, the classic race situation, but the skill is in avoiding these type of confrontations. The truly great player will simply never be in the position when he is gambling with his tournament life early on.

I agree with the guy who said accumulation is the key. You should be able to pick up small pots easily throughout the game without appearing maverick in the eyes of the other people. The real lunatics (or pushers as I think they may be known) tend to go all in before or on the flop on a regular basis. This type of play is beyond me and is often obviously a bluff. Personally, I would only call such a bet with the nuts (or damn close to it) so by that rationale what is the point of the bet? These guys end up staking all their chips to win the small blind, the big blind and two limping callers worth of money - crazy.

Post flop, depending on the size of the pot a bet of half to the size of the pot should be enough to take off any player from most hands (the smaller the pot the more inclined you should be to bet the size of it). Bear in mind that a pot sized bet offers odds of only 2/1 to the first caller and a half pot sized bet offers 3/1. These odds should discourage most drawing hands (although people chase more than they should and big implied odds do come into play). If you are called, ask yourself what they called with. Do they have a flush draw? If so, it is easy to see when it lands. Do they have a straight draw? This is a bit more difficult to read. If it is obvious they caught their card, don't be tempted to call their bet / raise out of anger at being outdrawn, you have only committed a small amount of chips so far and now you may be drawing dead, why bother?

Basically, you can work your way into a good chip position without ever showing down a hand and without ever taking a risk.

One last bit of advice which has served me very, very well over the past few months. In a tournament (except in the blinds and except in one or two very exceptional circumstances) never flat call the blind, either raise the pot or fold it. If you are not comfortable raising in the seat you are in with the cards you have then don't play - a flat call will not improve your table position and it will not improve your cards. A raise will do both - it will get you closer to the button because more players after you will fold and it will improve your hand in the eyes of the other players since you raised.

When you raise it, raise it to at least 3 big blinds (if nobody has called) or a pot sized raise if there are limpers in front. If you use this approach you are in the alpha position on every flop you see - i.e. you were the pre flop aggressor and your bluff, if it is a bluff, on the flop will get much more respect than perhaps it deserves. Think of this - if the guy on the button puts in a bet of half the pot to a QT8 flop are you more likely to respect this bet if the guy limped in or if he declared he had a reasonable starting hand by raising pre flop?

Be careful here though. If you have a marginal hand that you're not too keen on showing down, keep an eye on the stack held by the BB and SB. If one or both of them has less than 3 big blinds then there is a good chance your bet will be called. In fact, if one or both has anything up to about 6 big blinds left then they may well feel pot committed after calling the pre flop raise and you may have to show it down. This may not be a worry in terms of chips (you can afford it because you have accumulated so well) but if you are effectively caught stealing with a marginal hand and showed down, it could adversely affect your carefully crafted table image.

[Ben4040]

Jim thanks for the advice. I took into account what you said about going all-in before the flop and it seems to be working out. I played a single table tournament this afternoon in which I was on the short stack basically the entire time. I didn't go all-in, but raised pre-flop with solid hands even when I had very little chips. I won a few key hands and was able to place 3 out of 10. Typically I place 1st or 2nd, but I give myself credit for being so short on chips and finishing in the money.

[Ben4040]

I finished in the money for the first time in a multi-table tournament today. I placed 59 out of 1000. I took your advice Jim and avoided going all-in as much as possible, even though at one point I only had 600 chips and the big blind was 150. I doubled up on a few hands, including this one... which was real nice:
***** Hand History for Game 649293818 *****
150/300 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 4025875) - Fri Jun 04 11:54:12 EDT 2004
Table Multi-Table(16681) Table 7 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: namaste_1945 (3135)
Seat 2: SilentV (2175)
Seat 3: judiduke (1730)
Seat 4: rankin19 (4392)
Seat 5: dday63 (1577)
Seat 6: pancho55 (3630)
Seat 7: PRO_LINE (4455)
Seat 8: bushkaotb (2828)
Seat 9: iso_o (1910)
Seat 10: VOEST (3480)
dday63 posts small blind (75)
pancho55 posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SilentV [ As, Ad ]
PRO_LINE folds.
bushkaotb folds.
iso_o folds.
VOEST folds.
namaste_1945 folds.
SilentV raises (300) to 300
judiduke folds.
rankin19 calls (300)
dday63 folds.
pancho55 calls (150)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2d, 3s, 4c ]
pancho55 checks.
SilentV bets (300)
rankin19 calls (300)
pancho55 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ac ]
SilentV bets (500)
rankin19 raises (1000) to 1000
SilentV raises (1000) to 1500
rankin19 calls (500)
** Dealing River ** : [ 2c ]
SilentV bets (75)
SilentV is all-In.
rankin19 calls (75)
Creating Main Pot with $4725 with SilentV
** Summary **
Main Pot: 4725 |
Board: [ 2d 3s 4c Ac 2c ]
namaste_1945 balance 3135, didn't bet (folded)
SilentV balance 4725, bet 2175, collected 4725, net +2550 [ As Ad ] [ a full house, Aces full of twos -- As,Ad,Ac,2d,2c ]
judiduke balance 1730, didn't bet (folded)
rankin19 balance 2217, lost 2175 [ Ah Qc ] [ two pairs, aces and twos -- Ah,Ac,Qc,2d,2c ]
dday63 balance 1502, lost 75 (folded)
pancho55 balance 3330, lost 300 (folded)
PRO_LINE balance 4455, didn't bet (folded)
bushkaotb balance 2828, didn't bet (folded)
iso_o balance 1910, didn't bet (folded)
VOEST balance 3480, didn't bet (folded)
-----
I think overall I did well. I did go all-in, with AQ... after a raise to get knocked out. Thinking back on it I probably should have folded or just called, but I suppose it is always easy to see after the fact what you SHOULD have done. Take a look at this and let me know what you would have done:
-----
***** Hand History for Game 649428603 *****
1000/2000 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 4025875) - Fri Jun 04 13:37:30 EDT 2004
Table Multi-Table(16681) Table 5 (Real Money) -- Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: VikingFury (16100)
Seat 2: mariojino (21644)
Seat 3: tylanol (23024)
Seat 4: JingJang (10362)
Seat 5: SilentV (7338)
Seat 6: littlefredjr (8084)
Seat 7: CBLegacy (11178)
Seat 8: road_trip (6514)
Seat 9: bralucky7 (22873)
road_trip posts small blind (500)
bralucky7 posts big blind (1000)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SilentV [ Qs, Ac ]
VikingFury folds.
mariojino raises (2000) to 2000
tylanol folds.
JingJang folds.
SilentV raises (7338) to 7338
SilentV is all-In.
littlefredjr folds.
CBLegacy folds.
road_trip folds.
bralucky7 folds.
mariojino calls (5338)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5s, Td, 9h ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 9c ]
Creating Main Pot with $16176 with SilentV
** Summary **
Main Pot: 16176 |
Board: [ 5s Td 9h 7h 9c ]
VikingFury balance 16100, didn't bet (folded)
mariojino balance 30482, bet 7338, collected 16176, net +8838 [ Ad Ks ] [ a pair of nines with king kicker -- Ad,Ks,Td,9h,9cKs(kicker card) ]
tylanol balance 23024, didn't bet (folded)
JingJang balance 10362, didn't bet (folded)
SilentV balance 0, lost 7338 [ Qs Ac ] [ a pair of nines -- Ac,Qs,Td,9h,9c ]
littlefredjr balance 8084, didn't bet (folded)
CBLegacy balance 11178, didn't bet (folded)
road_trip balance 6014, lost 500 (folded)
bralucky7 balance 21873, lost 1000 (folded)
-----

[ballbp]

Nice work. I still don't play multis so I have no idea where I'd end up but 59th out of 1000 ain't too shabby.

[Ben4040]

Thank you. I definitely shouldn't have gone all-in with that hand though, but oh well. Next time I will know better.

[Ben4040]

Tough decision or not? What would you have done here...?

***** Hand History for Game 652740797 *****
200/400 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 4049636) - Sat Jun 05 20:07:30 EDT 2004
Table Table 11980 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: BDPE13 (1102)
Seat 3: SilentV (1570)
Seat 6: psychocoocoo (950)
Seat 8: m0nKeyMaGiC (1933)
Seat 10: markol25 (2445)
m0nKeyMaGiC posts small blind (100)
markol25 posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SilentV [ As, Kh ]
BDPE13 folds.
SilentV raises (400) to 400
psychocoocoo folds.
m0nKeyMaGiC raises (1833) to 1933
m0nKeyMaGiC is all-In.
markol25 folds.
SilentV calls (1170)
SilentV is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8h, 4c, 2h ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7d ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Qs ]
Creating Main Pot with $3340 with SilentV
Creating Side Pot 1 with $363 with m0nKeyMaGiC
** Summary **
Main Pot: 3340 | Side Pot 1: 363
Board: [ 8h 4c 2h 7d Qs ]
BDPE13 balance 1102, didn't bet (folded)
SilentV balance 0, lost 1570 [ As Kh ] [ high card ace -- As,Kh,Qs,8h,7d ]
psychocoocoo balance 950, didn't bet (folded)
m0nKeyMaGiC balance 3703, bet 1933, collected 3703, net +1770 [ Jd Jc ] [ a pair of jacks -- Qs,Jd,Jc,8h,7d ]
markol25 balance 2245, lost 200 (folded)

I had AK early, raised to 400 with the blinds at 100/200. I knew when the guy went all-in after me that he probably had a low pair and it would be a coin toss. But after the raise I only had a little over 1000 chips. With the blinds at 200 and already having 400 invested, what would you have done?

[Ben4040]

I'm still not doing well in the multi-table tournaments. My best finish was 24 out of 830. Since then I have been unable to finish in the prizepool. What can you do when you are just not getting any cards at all. Literally I have a 2-4 paired with another card 7-A every hand. No suited connectors. No pairs. No AK, AQ, AJ, A10. Nothing. If I did have one of those cobinations the flop would be all cards lower than 9 with no flush possible. When I finally do get a hand I have so few chips with the blinds so large that I am forced to make some kind of move. Every hand I go all-in with I figure I am going to win because I have a nice hand, but someone always pulls out a better hand. Example, very last MTT I played I had 900 chips with 50/100 blinds. I get dealt 22 in the big blind. Two other people call. The flop brings a 2 and I bet 200. They both call. Turn brings another card. Figuring them for top pair, an over pair, or two of a kind... I go all in. The first guy folds and the third guy flips over a straight. What can you do in such a spot? I've only got 600 chips left and there is 900 in the pot, I have a set of 2s on the short stack. How can you possibly put a guy on a straight like that? Lately I have had similar hands to get knocked out of a tournament. Every single time I was on the shortstack and thought I had the best hand to come back in the tournament. I had two pair and got beat with a flush. I had a straight and got beat with a full house. On the short stack with the blinds so large you have to make a stand at some point. But lately it's been so discouraging to get knocked out of these MTTs with these kind of hands. Just when I think I'm going to double up... I'm out.

To combat the poor cards I have been getting I have tried to play a little looser, such as playing 9-7 suited and J-10 (hands that I have folded in the past if many people are in the pot). I quickly found that to be a very bad idea. Playing conservative in these tournaments, especially early on, is key. Still, what can you do when you just aren't getting cards?

[Ben4040]

I just bought the book Super System. Hopefully it helps my game some... :D

[jwrussell]

Ben,

Sounds like you are doing plenty correct. One thing to keep in mind, you will not finish in the money all of the time, so if you are hitting 1 out of 5 or so you are probably in the groove. Brunson's book is great, but it isn't geared towards tournaments so keep that in mind.

Also, he'll tell you to play those suited connectors like J,10!

Personally (I've finished at the final table on 2 multis out of probably 20-30 so I'm not an expert) I find the best strategy is very conservative and very agressive. It all depends on the people you are playing. The last tournament I finished 4th in I picked up so many pots and blinds from the middle to end of the tournament it wasn't funny! Someone else mentioned this, but if you are in the pot, be raising, not calling.

When you read Super System, you'll understand this better, but it was hilarious. I would be sitting there saying to myself, no way this guy gives this pot up, and sure enough, every time, there go the cards into the muck.

Also, no matter what anyone says, luck will always come into play at some time or another. You just have to make sure that when it does that you have a hand of some sort.

I'll also second (actually it's probably up to 20 by now) the notion that pre-flop all-ins are almost always a bad idea. I've had so many hands that I probably could have won on the flop by betting the person out of the pot when a card hit me and not them that I lost because of a turn or river card that couldn't be avoided because we were all in.

Keep pluggin' away and you'll hit it!

[Ben4040]

Now I can't even seem to win the single table tournaments. I have lost 6 consecutive single table tournaments. When I have a 75% and 85% chance of winning a hand to double up and make the prizepool I get eliminated. Hands like this are killing my bankroll by not allowing me to place in the money:

***** Hand History for Game 695398456 *****
200/400 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 4320467) - Tue Jun 22 22:42:31 EDT 2004
Table Table 12528 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: SilentV (872)
Seat 3: SEANJEN (4640)
Seat 6: themaze (1813)
Seat 10: JDMalone (675)
JDMalone posts small blind (100)
SilentV posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SilentV [ 8h, 6h ]
SEANJEN raises (400) to 400
themaze folds.
JDMalone folds.
SilentV calls (200)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7h, 8s, 4h ]
SilentV bets (472)
SilentV is all-In.
SEANJEN calls (472)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3s ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 4s ]
Creating Main Pot with $1844 with SilentV
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1844 |
Board: [ 7h 8s 4h 3s 4s ]
SilentV balance 0, lost 872 [ 8h 6h ] [ two pairs, eights and fours -- 8h,8s,7h,4h,4s ]
SEANJEN balance 5612, bet 872, collected 1844, net +972 [ 4d 3d ] [ a full house, Fours full of threes -- 4d,4h,4s,3d,3s ]
themaze balance 1813, didn't bet (folded)
JDMalone balance 575, lost 100 (folded)

Did I play this wrong? Or am I just getting really unlucky?

[jwrussell]

Wow, that was harsh. I don't know what to tell you. I'm not sure I would have called 1/3 of my remaining stack to the chip leaders with 8,6 suited. But after the flop, yes I believe you played it the only way you could.

[Ninja]

You had to either go all-in when raised, or fold. Only two options.

[Ben4040]

I have to take a break. It's just so bad getting beat on hands like that. I've lost 6 STTs in a row where at least 3 of them I should have gotten 1st or 2nd place and one hand killed me to get knocked out in 4th. When I say lost by the way I mean not placing in the money. That is what losing is to me. :D

[Ben4040]

By the way, thanks for the advice jwrussell. I've been getting unlucky, but I will just have to keep going at it. I was up $200 on partypoker but now because of the losses I'm in the neighborhood of $164. What kills me is that I keep thinking that I'm down $36 from $200 rather than I'm up $164 overall. With that kind of mentality it makes losing even more difficult to bear. It's especially hard playing in a tournament when you are thinking about your past losses... because it puts more pressure on you. It's like Doyle says in his book, you can't think about the tournament you lost the day before it is IRRELEVANT to the tournament you are currently playing. But it is so hard to forget that you are in a losing streak. That's why I think taking a break for a week or maybe longer will be a good idea so I can come back to the game with a clearer state of mind. I'm confident I can win back what I've lost and get back up to the $200 mark, but I think I will play better and make that more likely to happen if I take it easy and then come back on a Friday or Saturday night when the STTs appear to have the looser players. For some reason I seem to fair better on Saturday nights, so a couple Saturday's from now I will hit the STTs again. :D

[jwrussell]

Good thoughts man. You have to take a break now and then or you will burn out. And NOBODY wants to burn out on poker! :D

Take a few days off like you said and come back fresh. You'll be back up in no time.