Online Pro out Of Order IMO

[Jernej Zorec]

I'd also like to reiterate one small point that I picked up on; From the very beginning Sentinel offered the insight, "At risk of being flamed for questioning a top online player.." and then respectfully added his input, openly admitting that his information could be correct or incorrect, however it's an open discussion and I think that is what he was going for here.

I'm going to say it because no one else will, but you sound like a deluded live player that thinks he's figured out what "real poker is" while forgetting what the point of the game is: to make money.

And there is supafey's first personal attack. I guess every board needs a flamer?

this is opinion not a personal attac personal attack would be
YOU ARE ..... and not "u sound like"

u guys fail to comprehend stuff and the fact that some slovenian has to point that out is sad

[Garoen]

He used the phrase "Sound like" to express his interpretation of inaudible text, "online speech". Then he made a comparison, an insulting bit of buzzwords and jibber jabber. I guess he could have said "Read like" but that's awkward.

Ultimately, if you were to go to a seminar and your comments towards the speaker afterwards were, "You sounded like an ass, you sound like you dont know anything about your field", I don't think it could be argued that you'd made anything but a personal attack. Especially not simply because it was prefaced with "You sound like".

*Exception here being if aforementioned speaker was reading from a script representing opinions of a parent company/group/organization. Then, the attack would be more guided towards the writer. In this scenario Sentinel was giving genuine personal opinion.

[supafrey]

If I didn't respond to ppl THP would never get new posts, imo.

[TheSalche]

This reminds of an online web comic I enjoy ...

http://www.cad-comic.com/comic.php?d=20080227

@ supa : Bill O'Reilly Video = hilarious

[UrAteUp]

If Dwan was showing any frustration, it's probably just because he knew Phil was all talk and would never actually play durrr HU for big monies, especially after durrr said they could play as many times as Phil wanted so luck wouldn't be a factor.

If Dwan was showing frustration it was when Phil turned of those rockets. He was probably thinking just what I would be...I'll be damned...Phil made a oood play..great this will go straight to his head but no matter I will be out enjoying a cash game by then.

Then when that ten hit the board...ole Dwan was thinking...damn what a good suckout. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy...I bet this will get Phil blowing up and spewing trash talk....

[MrDarling]

Can't believe I almost read through this entire thread.
I also can't believe how much energy people devote to online arguments.

FWIW, I do believe Durrrr felt slightly uncomfortable winning by sucking out.
I do agree that Durrr's play is kind of standard, especially to an online HU cash game player.
Am not sure Durrr's is doing his best to get to play vs Phil just because Phil is easy money. Am pretty sure there are easier games to find. Though if I was a betting man, I'll bet on Durrrr to come on top. I think this is more of an ego fight by two small kids.

Also, talking about reads, am just busy watching Poker After Dark season 3. Phil went to win two episodes.In both he sucked out big time a couple of times to win getting it in real bad.
J3 vs 85 on J85
A3 vs KK (after a limp/push HU)
Ax vs AK
etc... so even the "greatest" player in the world (at least in his own eyes) can't really read to save his life.

[tame_deuces]

Maybe its a myth enforced by TV editing, but I really do think PH's reading abilities of hands seem really uncanny.

Sure he misses sometimes, but I'm not expecting a psychic either.

[supafrey]

Yeah it's like he knew his AA was winning.

[tame_deuces]

Yeah it's like he knew his AA was winning.

I wasn't exactly talking about this hand, holding the nuts doesn't require much. But I remember when he read Lederer for a gutshot on PAD, it was an extremely impressive hand. And there are others.

[MrDarling]

No one reads like Daniel.
I remember seeing one hand where he puts someone on KK when they played it non standard. He still called and lost, but he knew exactly what they had.

[Sentinel]

My first time back after a month or so.

Garoen, many thanks for seeing the obvious in my statements. Thanks.

This post is a bit long but I think it's very important for the remaining members of this board. If you just stick with it, you'll see why. If it's not, then, meh.

[/b]Jernej,[b]
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You say I haven't said anything of consequence yet also admit to having read practically nothing of the thread.

And even if you only read 1 post from Supa and 1 from me, it is pertinently clear that I have done nothing but tell the truth. That you are unable to see that speaks volumes about you (take that howeve you want).

And thanks for your advice but there is no need to reread anything of Supa, I know exactly what he was saying and - at the risk of repeating what I have said in every post thus far - Supa attacked me throughout in this thread, made unfounded claims, passed them off as fact and when I PROVED them to be false and CHALLENGED him, he just ignored and moved onto the next unwarranted untruth. How you can not see that is mind boggling.

And it's this fact that you can't see that is part of the reason why I am moving on. Because when people refuse to see the truth then there is no hope and it just becomes an exercise in futility.

And you dare to say I obviously missed the point when all throughout YOU have missed the entire point of this thread (after the first few posts on the hand itself)?! Are you for real? Then you have the nerve to say I missed the point when YOU yourself can't even understand the CLEAR and PLAIN English that I used to refute Supa's arrogance, lies and pure BS?!?

As for getting defensive - look at my first batch of replies to Supa. Go on, will only take a minute. You will see that despite his aggressive/insulting words and phrases I stay factual and respectful. It wasn't until he stepped waaaaay over the mark in his post (Mon May 12, 2008 6:57 am) that I finally matched fire with fire. This is the post where he started to make up crap about me, as well as try to be more of an authority on MY profession, as well as deride that profession. A quick recap:

1) "Your analysis is embarrassing" - whether you agree or not, is this really a deserving response to someone trying to learn?

2) "your kind of hyper-active analysis is the kind of stuff they laugh at" - on poker maybe. Thanks for putting down a noobie. Feel better? But away from the hand, I am not a noob. I am a professional, so this comment is as laughabale as it is out of order.

3) "Your wonderful 3 year BA may have taught you 'body language'" - and we're off with the incorrect assumptions. The first of many.

4) "And the difference between me and you, is when I say top 10 holdem players, I refer to one and only one thing: money" - actually I never mentioned anything about top 10 players and so he's making crap up again.

5) "You thinking they need to "make the move to live" to prove something to you speaks more loudly" - I never said anything about proving in the live arena.

6) "than any of your pseudo-scientific behaviouralist crap" - and how does a layman know it's crap? Just how out of order is this comment? Someone is saying they are a professional and yet they're being told, aggressively and mockingly, that it's a crock of shit. By someone who knows nothing on the matter.

7) "As much as I love the inaccuracy of psychology for the occasional laugh"[i] - so even psychology is flawed now. Coming from someone NOT in the field. Anyone else think that's out of order?

8) [i]"watching you awkwardly try to apply it to strangers' professions" - even if you don't agree with what I said, and even if you disbelieve all I have said about my knowledge in the field, you have no knoweldge of how I apply anything. I was actually very confident but even if I was very nervous, it is impossible to tell from just the words on the virtual page. So again, more lies and BS.

And this is how it started. Where Supa attacked, derided and made up pure lies to make himself look good and to make me look bad - I stuck to the truth. I replied to EVERY line and quoted previous posts to PROVE and then I CHALLENGED him to prove otherwise - and we all saw that he couldn't. Instead, he chose another avenue to attack.

The rest as they say is history. But why is this important to you members of the board. Well, the reason is simple, this thread has finally forced me to move on. To leave the forum and find another.

I know it's no big deal and I know I won't be missed. hell, to MrD and co it will probably be a relief. But you have to look at why I am going, not the fact that I am. Being soft is not in my nature, and I can flame anyone into the ground - as I did with Supa in this thread. If this were a court of law, he'd lose heavily. The facts were irrefutable & he could never answer them. His claims were ludicrous, unfounded, hearsay (at best) and collapsed under the slightest scrutiny. But this is not a court of law and so I digress.

Did I get it wrong about how Durrr played the hand? Have I asked retarded questions? Have I laboured to get the points others have made? Yes, in all possibility. But this is a forum, to share advice and to help others. And so is it such a crime to want to know more from those who frequent these pages?

Even if you cannot bring yourself to reread the entire thread, just look at Supa's words that I have included in this post. Is that the kind of person you want on your board? Is that the kind of responses you think anyone who wants to learn should be subjected to? And do you think that anyone who "claims" (as you can't know for sure) to be a professional deserves to be treated with such derision and abuse as that - from a layman of all people?!

This is your board and the good work of MrD, DiamondCutter and co is being undermined by one person who never seems to contribute anything of worth. Who only makes pithy comments that reek of self importance and arrogance. Who is here to do anything BUT help. Who's very activity on this board begs the question "why bother?"

As said, I can handle myself and despite the myopic views of Jernej and SeanInNJWhoCan'tReadPlainEnglish, I feel I did just that. And more to the point, I never resorted to lies and misassumptions as Supa did. Despite all his attacks, his dismissal of my skills and profession and even (laughhably) his trying to compete with me in this area, I never once resorted to his level. Instead, I responded to every claim and used fact that you can all verify, to prove them false.

But ask yourself this, is this how you want your board to be viewed? Because he is undoing all the good work that everyone else does. His one rotten apple is spoiling the entire harvest. And you will lose more and more people because of his outrageous and out of order actions. And when he is blindly supported by the aforementioned goons - despite everything being as clear as day (me: truthful, answering ALL his claims, challenging him to answer them - Supa: lying, dodging, abusing - then there really is no use in hanging around.

To be honest, I could cope with Supa but it's wehn the otehr two dived in, supporting him, without obviously taking the time to read, that made me come to the decision to leave. The fool who believes red is green is being backed up by a few others so what more can you do? Nothing. And why hang around people who are so blindly loyal? Who even admit to not reading the full details? Why hang around when a non expert is dismissing YOUR skills and prowess when he hasn't even picked up on 1/100th of the tells that are clear as day to such a professional?

And why hang around when that person refuses to use an ounce of integrity and engage in a sensible, intelligent debate - choosing instead to waffle any old BS and then refuse to back it up when challenged? It's like a fighter having to chase another fighter around the ring, that won't stand toe to toe. It just becomes an exercise in futility and surreality.

Guys, why have a forum if you want this behaviour to flow freely? Disagreeing with someone is one thing. Being unnecessarily aggressive is completely another. And as for trying to teach an expert about their own field of expertise is just plain ludicrous. As for all the lies and failing to display an ounce of integrity throughout the thread, that's just as low as it can get.

Yet this is the defining moment of this board for me. And it will be for others too. And over time, the lost numbers could be quite substantial. Hell, maybe even enough to have you one of the top boards, and mentioning in poker magazines If you just want a closed shop where the same bunch can gossip then fair enough. But if you have any inclination to share the wealth of knowledge then you need to question why you tolerate such acidic and aggressive BS from that one individual - who is so obnoxious that he would argue with Einstein about Relativity.

And it's important that if you;re going to post support for someone that you get your facts right - and take the time to read what's gone on because quite frankly, comments like Jernej made just does a major disservice and further fuels the "futility" aspect.

Does ANYONE deserve to be treated in the way Supa routinely treats others? Especially when he chooses to barge into a topic that had nothing to do with him? It's the online equivalent of interrupting a conversation between two people and smearing dog shit over one of them, and then walking off.

Would any of YOU want to be treated like that?

And that's just his STANDARD behaviour! That
hasn't even touched on the BS that he churned out in this thread: the lying, making crap up, arguing with a professional (and getting things wrong), avoiding to respond when he has been afforded the courtesy of a full response, ignoring the majority of posts and replying only to the comments he can twist to his own end etc etc.

Supa may be a great poker player. I don't know. But what I do know is that as a human being, he is far from great. In fact, he's far from the dizzy heights of 'mediocre'. And I fail to see any value in his being here, nor understand why he would choose to hang around when all he does is spit bile everywhere.

The thing is, it's your board guys, your forum. Don't let one individual destroy it for you, drive anybody else away, and undo all the good work and good intentions of those who are here to help because it just undermines the very point of the forum.

To everybody, thanks for your help over the past year and I hope you take this post in the good nature that it was intended. Garoen was able to see things as they were, and I have stated enough times how I never dodged a single point of Supa and used fact to reveal his blatant lies. I just hope you guys can see that to. Because there are far more people who wouldn't even stand up to Supa, or pwn him. Instead, they will just leave and badmouth YOUR forum to others.

My leaving is no big deal in itself - but why I am leaving speaks volumes and it should concern you all.

Adios.


ps: MrD, you say Hellmuth can't read to save his life. What about ALL the otehr times when he's named the exact hand - even down to whether they were suited or not? Remember the Kevin Light PAD - just one illustration of some great reads.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

tl; dr