Out of position - small pocket pair.

[Ciso_B]

Ok, somewhat new to this table. I decided rather then lead out into raiser on flop, (looks weak imo), I decided I'd check call then lead almost any turn card...actually get a good turn card if I was behind.Is my line ok? Re raise pre ? Lead flop ? ,Check riase flop?

Full Tilt Poker Game #10581029556: $20,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (79709716), Table 1 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:33:31 ET - 2009/02/12
Seat 1: misdirection81 (9,600)
Seat 2: 4us0306 (22,705)
Seat 3: Danimal0 (14,625)
Seat 4: STCATH1 (4,112)
Seat 5: slim258 (12,212)
Seat 7: Ciso (16,492)
Seat 8: jeyun (5,307)
Seat 9: DuckU (8,060)
Ciso posts the small blind of 100
jeyun posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ciso [6h 6d]
DuckU folds
misdirection81 folds
4us0306 folds
Danimal0 folds
STCATH1 folds
slim258 has 15 seconds left to act
slim258 raises to 470
Ciso calls 370
jeyun folds
*** FLOP *** [3d 4c Kh]
Ciso checks
slim258 has 15 seconds left to act
slim258 bets 680
Ciso calls 680
*** TURN *** [3d 4c Kh] [5h]
Ciso has 15 seconds left to act
Ciso bets 1,400
slim258 has 15 seconds left to act
slim258 calls 1,400
*** RIVER *** [3d 4c Kh 5h] [5s]
Ciso has 15 seconds left to act
Ciso checks
slim258 checks

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Are you planning to c/c or c/f the river?

[Ciso_B]

probably c/f most of the time. I can beat busted hearts or a stubborn Ace high only.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

probably c/f most of the time. I can beat busted hearts or a stubborn Ace high only.

That being the case, I'm not sure how much I like the turn bet.

[gumbie]

This si a 3b/fold pre in cash so i can't seeing it being a call in turnament.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

ya pre is dodgy

[ErinJeff]

I'm OK with the pf because you're both deep and his is a raise from a stealing position. I also see an argument for 3bet pf. Depends on style/reads somewhat.

[MrDarling]

I'm OK with the pf because you're both deep and his is a raise from a stealing position.

You're contradicting your self....

[ErinJeff]

I'm OK with the pf because you're both deep and his is a raise from a stealing position.

You're contradicting your self....

How so? My thinking is that without reads I don't want to 3bet, get called OOP, miss the flop (likely), cbet the flop and then have to fold a medium sized pot that I could just setmine for a decent price with high implied odds.

[Jauron]

I'm OK with the pf because you're both deep and his is a raise from a stealing position.

You're contradicting your self....

How so? My thinking is that without reads I don't want to 3bet, get called OOP, miss the flop (likely), cbet the flop and then have to fold a medium sized pot that I could just setmine for a decent price with high implied odds.

If he's in stealing position why would we just call (if we beat most of his range) OOP? The value in small/middle pairs is not just set mining.

[ErinJeff]

OK, I see what you and MrD are saying. I addressed that by saying that you can take the 3bet route, with the consequence that if called you need to cbet the flop and risk losing a lot more than the initial raise.

I get the point and sometimes play my small pp this way, but against an unknown I'd rather setmine. I'm not saying the other approach is wrong.

[MrDarling]

You contradict by saying we get the price to set mine but he rarely have a big hand that will pay us if we hit.

If we have reads then we can try to play post (ie if we know he'll cbet and give up if he miss) but readless fold>3B>call

[ErinJeff]

Unless we know villain only raises premium hands we never know if we are going to get paid if we flop our set. Does this mean that you always 3bet or fold all mid-low pp against unknowns?

IMO call>3bet>fold none are that bad.

[MrDarling]

Its all about position and ranges.

When someone opens from LP by defult their ranges is wider then someone who opens from EP. Also, if we have position we can actually play for more then set value.

SB vs BTN is the worse place to call with pp. First, BTN have the widest possible range. Second, we're going to be OOP which make extracting value even if we hit and he happen to have a marginal hand very hard and third a good BB can profitably squeeze with a very wide range, even against 2 unknowns.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

darling is totally right here, I'd only call if I thought he really sucked