Overbet bluff....

[Ciso_B]

Not something I do , very often, in fact , I don't recall in living memory doing it in a cash game.

Theres situations in poker where you feel like your hand isn't good enough at showdown,but taht your opponents have enough of something to call u down, lest u really put them to the test. Taking that into consideration and factoring in the flop and pre flop action, do we hate a big turn bet here?

My feeling at the time was that the initial raiser (played all his strong/moderate hands fast) for sure didn't have an ace, he could have had KK,QQ here, but definitely not a big hand post flop.

The guy who checked behind on flop , how could he not bet a hand here multiway in position.Finally the other fellow, didnt re raise pre flop, didnet bet flop, which he still could do with an ace, but then neglected to bet turn too after everyone checked. So is my play all that bad ?


Full Tilt Poker Game #12229557193: Table Tree Line (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 4:46:50 ET - 2009/05/15
Seat 1: neji25 ($236.30)
Seat 2: Itwasntme1983 ($115.90)
Seat 3: f0rs4ken ($100)
Seat 4: NemoRailBird ($105.30)
Seat 5: sergey321 ($108)
Seat 6: Ciso ($99)
NemoRailBird posts the small blind of $0.50
sergey321 posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ciso [4h 4d]
Ciso calls $1
neji25 raises to $4.50
Itwasntme1983 calls $4.50
f0rs4ken folds
NemoRailBird has 15 seconds left to act
NemoRailBird folds
sergey321 calls $3.50
Ciso calls $3.50
*** FLOP *** [6c Ad Jh]
sergey321 checks
Ciso checks
neji25 checks
Itwasntme1983 checks
*** TURN *** [6c Ad Jh] [2h]
sergey321 checks
Ciso has 15 seconds left to act
Ciso bets $26


Pot size = $17



P.S before ppl start flaming me for limping utg with 4s here,I ll state why now, I was on a table where it was often raise/reraise fold etc. and i wanna see a flop 100 bbs deep with any pocket pair if i can,so utg, utg +1 Im sometimes gonna limp these small pairs to garantee seeing a flop by calling the raiser. I'd hate to make it like $4 someone make it $15 and i dont even get to try and spike my set.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

really tho preflop is bad, thats how all fish think. i dont mind this line if ur prepared to bomb all in on basically all rivers lol but if u plan on giving up i wouldnt advise it

[gumbie]

lol

[supafrey]

Yeah preflop is pretty terrible. Fold or initiate the betting (i bet).

There are a bunch of boards where I overbet bluff but an ace-high one multiway is prolly not the time to do it. You're gonna get a bunch of random aces calling the turn and you've gotta know you can push em off later. Pretty tough.

IMO there's just too many decent hands willing to check the flop for us to be any good to bet.

[Ciso_B]

YYou're gonna get a bunch of random aces calling the turn

I really felt there wasn't a single ace out there, even the preflop raiser in this instance, played his big hands fast. So I just don't see it. I can be wrong, I'm not God, but I think its really really unlikely. The reason I overbet was simply cos it's still possible someone could have came along with some funky KJ , or pf riaser with qq/kk if I didn't fire a really big bet in.

Thanks for the comments miaow,gumbie too. I already appreciate that being the agressor,open raising and not playing passive is traits you need in cash. However, I also would like to let you in on something- poker is pretty complex, just cos every internet coaching site says " raise pre flop, c bet 80% of time unless multiway etcetc", when you get stuck in this mindset, you fail to see that it too has flaws.I have respect for your opinions, and I'm in no way saying limping is better than raising.
What I'm getting at is this , say you want to open raise any pp utg here, if your short handed especially, people are more agressive, which is better out of the following actions
- raise pre, get re raised to say 15x, then either fold or call to set mine (oop here too remember)
-limp, (admittedly give up some "ev" ) , call the raise , play the hand somewhat cheaper, unless you catch.
Then theres obviously, raise- get called, proceed agressively etc etc .

Course, you have be able to limp with some other hands that are non pairs utg for your play not become transparent. ala AJc/AQ etc.. but I'm just stating when i post on here, I'm no chris ferguson who adheres to raising EVERY time I open, im no student of stoxpoker that follows systems rigidly.

All of this is irrelevant anyway lol, im not a cash player. But I'm just giving you my thought why I will sometimes stubbornly defend a line that isn't the norm.
Although somewhat unimportant , I picked up the pot on the turn.
And also would like state that had I been 2 seats to left I would have opened, and often am raising 1 to left. Just the table dynamics (which tbh are often raise/re raise fold), dictated I give up the lead in the hand to see the flop, albeit at the behest of my opponent.

[gumbie]

Seriously ciso, folding is better than open limping preflop.

Tbh it took me a long while to believe it too

[miaowmiaowchowface]

if ppl are 3betting u relentlessly try just shoving ur 44 , they will back off

[miaowmiaowchowface]

I'm UTG+1, and I pick up AClubTHeart and limp. Theres a raise to 20$, 3 callers and I call.

Flop: T Club 9 Diamond 3Club

BB checks, and I lead for 100$, to see where I'm at.

lol i was once like you

[Ciso_B]

I'm not a fish , limp calling raises out of position with A 10.
I'm done here,I knew this would come down to berating the limp rather than focusing more on whether the turn bet was bad/really bad/ or alright lol.
But you guys cant help yourself. That's fine.

[gumbie]

That's because u actually realise the turn bet was bad, so there is no need to press the issue.

[Ciso_B]

Probably is yeah, but at least I'm honest enough to admit weak/crap plays I make, and consistently post hands I misplay/play weird. I'm one of few people around here these days who can question stuff and admits mistakes made.

Just to reiterate, I don't love the turn bet, but changing it up once in a while and making that play isn't horrific providing you're logic/reasoning is sound.(Although this play is probably best suited for a heads up confrontation rather than vs 3 opponents).

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

I don't like the overbet just because I don't feel like it will accomplish anything a smaller bet wouldn't. He's obviously going to fold most of his range, but I'm not sure it needs to be that big to make all the same hands fold.

[supafrey]

I don't like the overbet just because I don't feel like it will accomplish anything a smaller bet wouldn't. He's obviously going to fold most of his range, but I'm not sure it needs to be that big to make all the same hands fold.

It doesn't need to be that big at all.

Overbet bluffs work because of the subtle meta behind it. It makes you look like you were playing the flop fancy, and are desperate to try to get money in on the turn with a good hand. Most non-threatening rivers would mean that you have to bet again or your story across streets just isn't consistent.

Yeah that whole limping preflop thing is not debatable. Realizing why we do counter-intuitive stuff is the hard part of this game, right? If you really want to go through the lessons of learning why it's bad, go right ahead, but there's tons of people offering you shortcuts, baldo.

[odlozilik]

if ppl are 3betting u relentlessly try just shoving ur 44 , they will back off

Will they fold often enough to make this profitable? If they call, I am on coinflip at the best.

[kingetje]

i kind of like it

you know some random kunt is calling the turn with like their JT-QJ but will probably fold those hands to this overbet