Penalties for infractions

[galderon]

We're having a home poker tournament in a week where we're going to merge our regular six-man group with a larger, different group of guys. The other group is very casual and fairly ignorant to poker etiquette.

So we're anticipating a lot of things like string betting, talking about possible hands, betting out of turn, that kind of thing, and we want to eventually bring this group up to the standard that we play with our original, smaller group.

Now most poker rules mention infractions and when to enforce penalties, but don't describe what the penalties actually are. Others mention penalties as time away from the table, but I don't think that will fly. They're basically good guys who just need to be trained on poker etiquette.

So my question is, what kind of penalties do you guys enforce in your home tournaments? My goal is really to educate, but if someone continues to make the same infraction over and over, I'd like a harsher penalty available.

Ideas? Thanks in advance!

[zinn0]

Four words: hanged, drawn and quartered.

[Iron Butt]

Matching the blinds is good. Usually gets things settled down early too. Just make absolutely sure everyone understands what's going on.

[ORGrinder]

i'd speculate that the situation you describe isn't going to work out so well. short of the casual group not having a choice but to play with your more refined group... i doubt they'll stick around for more than one game. i speak from experiance.

that said, try to keep the penalties to a minimum at first while the new guys get used to how REAL poker works. and make sure everyone is very clear as to whatever penalties and rules you have before the start of the game.

since there's a lot of things a player can do, i'll just speak to your specific mention of string betting. the best "penalty" here is to either force the player to simply call, or only raise the absolute minimum.

[galderon]

Thanks for the responses.

Matching the blinds is good. Usually gets things settled down early too. Just make absolutely sure everyone understands what's going on.

Elaborate on what you mean by "matching the blinds"? Does that mean someone with an infraction has to forfeit an additional amount equal to the big blind into the pot?

i'd speculate that the situation you describe isn't going to work out so well.

Well, my fears are only speculative at this point, I personally have never played with these new guys. I'm willing to admit that it might not be the best poker for the first few tournaments, but I'm willing to give it a shot. My current group maxes out at around six guys, so it's extremely hard to get a game going, since just about everyone has to be able to make it.

So hopefully these new guys will come around. From what I hear, they're just mostly ignorant to proper etiquette...I bet that a lot of them don't even know what "string bet" means.

that said, try to keep the penalties to a minimum at first while the new guys get used to how REAL poker works. and make sure everyone is very clear as to whatever penalties and rules you have before the start of the game.

I agree...I don't want to overly strict to begin with. It took my regular group some time before they were playing real poker.

Yeah, string bets are pretty easy to curb...just don't allow the raise. If someone says "I call you...and raise you...", we need to just cut him short and say, "You called." If he pushes a call into the pot, then reaches for more chips, we'll tell him he called.

I sometimes play in a free tournament at local bars, and they're pretty strict with rules...their main penalty is to force you to fold your hand. Bet out of turn? Your hand is dead. Pick your cards off the table? Your hand is dead. Show your cards to someone else? Your hand is dead.

I want to have some enforcement ability, but I don't want to tackle everything at once with this group and appear to be a total ass. I'd love to hear anyone else's ideas.

[ORGrinder]

ya. i'd say give them a warning or two first for blatant violations... such as showing cards to someone (unless the other person is involved with the hand... in which case obviously that's an auto fold). things like betting out of turn happen from time to time too... even with folks who know better. a warning or two is a nice way to let people know of the rules without comming off as a poker nazi.

one of the things i always do at games i play is watch for ppl showing others their cards. generally this happens at the showdown when they lose and chose to fold. whether i'm in a hand or not, if i see someone show their lost hand to someone else, i always ask "what did you show"? i'm nice about it but it gets the point across since they now have to disclose it to everyone at the table. maybe tell all of your regulars to keep an eye out and do the same.

[tame_deuces]

Just explain beforehand that you wish to keep the game clean and fast, the penalties are there to ensure it. It is usually easier to enforce rules when people have been told beforehand that it will happen.

[jimmer]

what kind of penalties do you guys enforce in your home tournaments?

As they're only learning, and nowhere near your standard (supposabily), you need to be patient. You're gonna get problems, just let them be. I think if you impose penalties for the new guys, they're just not gonna bother coming back.

At the end of the day, if you want more players, you've got to take the rough with the smooth.

if they disobey the rules on purpose, don't invite them back. (or take 'em outside and give them a good kicking)

You need to ask the question; Why are you inviting them? If the answer is; to increase the amount of players at your homegame, then you've got to expect a few teething problems. Like it and lump it!

[galderon]

You need to ask the question; Why are you inviting them? If the answer is; to increase the amount of players at your homegame, then you've got to expect a few teething problems. Like it and lump it!

Yup, I hear you. I don't expect too many problems, but I wanted some recourse in case things got out of hand.

[rodriguezcatherine8]

I've picked up some of the rules as I've gone along. But I'm still not familiar with all the lingo and all the rules. But I don't let them know. I just sit low key and listen a lot. I've seen others show their cards after loosing and I always thought that wasn't kosher, it just didn't seem right. But I didn't know it was a rule. A lot of the rules are common sense but people choose to ignore them anyway. I think if those other guys have been playing together (the way they have) for a long time, its going to be difficult to teach an old dog new tricks. Unless they are all open to learning the correct way to play. It wouldn't hurt to try to find that out before hand, to see where they all stand.

[Sean_in_NJ]

It's been my experience that people are more likely to remember and follow rules when they understand why the rule exists. So instead of throwing out a terse, "String bet, take it back," explain why string bets are illegal. Explain how showing your cards to the person next to you gives that person an unfair advantage in that hand and others. Give an example of why table stakes is important, and you can't go into your pocket for more money during a hand.

When I first started playing regularly with my friends, most considered me to be a bit of a nitpicker, but that changed pretty quickly when they saw how much smoother the game was. Our little home game runs as well as any casino game you'll find, there are no ugly arguments (aside from bad beats) and everyone has fun (aside from bad beats).

[golddog]

Additionally, make sure to publish rules beforehand. In that document, discuss what things like string betting are, and why it's bad. Make sure that's distributed (or at least available, if you have on-line registration) and have copies available.

Additionally, with a group of supposed newbies, somebody needs to volunteer to sit out and be the floor. I'm sure the first time or two, there will be enough work for them.

[weirdofreek]

my pet peeve is splashing. So when a noob splashes we give them 2 warnings third time they throw a bet/call in the pot it stays and if they want to call they have to put out a new call in front of them where it belongs until the pots right.