PLO Study Group

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

I am really interested in trying to get good at Pot Limit Omaha high. A lot of people think it is the game of the future, and a lot of fish are switching over to this to try it out, so I think there may be money potential there.

However, I think this is one game where there is still very little definitive or good literature on the game, and I still believe I have a lot to learn on the subject to become a winning player. I would like to use this thread as a theory and HH discussion for anyone interested.

Who is in?

[crack]

Yep I'm in. You may want to check out Bob Ciaffone's Omaha Poker book. I bought that a while ago and it's worth it.

[Gunslinger]

Dave, last month I read Jeff Hwang's new Omaha book, I highly recommend it. I've had almost no time to play a lot of poker recently, but after reading that book, I was very comfortable on the PLO tables and did well my first few ventures.

I'm a total PLO beginner, but I also want to get better at it, and I'll try to join in the discussions.

[raisebot]

I'm in.

The key point that Jeff Hwang stresses is not to play for pots, play for stacks. Seems obvious enough but a lot of beginners dont realize that "their" nuts aren't the "real" nuts. Have the goods with a killer redraw to get your money in.

Straights are the key to winning in Omaha, since flushes will get you in trouble if you're not holding the nuts, and your baby full house will usually be crushed.

I've been playing quite a lot of PLO lately, and have been doing well. And always, always, raise if you're playing in position. Raise or fold, no in-between (except for maybe showdown)

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

OK hand 1 for analysis... forget to copy HH.

$0.10/$0.25 6-max. Hero is in 2nd position with $25 stack and [Ah As 8d 8s]. Villain on the button covers.

Hero raises pot to $0.85.
Villain calls $0.85.
Blinds fold.
Pot: $2.05

Flop: [Js 8c 6c]
Hero bets $2.05 (pot).
Villain raises $6.15 (pot).
Pot is now $12.30, $6.15 for Hero to call. $22.10 remains in stack.

What is our best plan and why?

[crack]

Ugh, such an action board. If it was like J82r then I would be really worried about top set, but I think at $25 and on that board I am just going to pot it back. Too many cards can come on the turn that will either kill your action if you still have the best of it or outdraw you.

Of course when I don't have top set I am worried I may be crushed, but he may make that move if he just puts you on naked aces (they won't put you on a set of 8's after raising pf) and may be making a play with a J, two pair or a draw. I say pot it back.

[Jernej Zorec]

yeh pot it back

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

I'm starting new threads for individual hands. I'm going to dump some theoretical concerns in this one.

Relating back to that hand, I did repot it. He repotted it right back. From my perspective, this doesn't change much, because he has to push a big draw as well as top set, and he might even do it with bottom set (especially if he has something like a one-way draw with it). On a board like that, heads-up, I think it's probably worth trying to get all-in a fair amount of the time with middle set.

More points of discussion on that hand before we move to something else?

[miaowmiaowchowface]

OK hand 1 for analysis... forget to copy HH.

$0.10/$0.25 6-max. Hero is in 2nd position with $25 stack and [Ah As 8d 8s]. Villain on the button covers.

Hero raises pot to $0.85.
Villain calls $0.85.
Blinds fold.
Pot: $2.05

Flop: [Js 8c 6c]
Hero bets $2.05 (pot).
Villain raises $6.15 (pot).
Pot is now $12.30, $6.15 for Hero to call. $22.10 remains in stack.

What is our best plan and why?

I'm not very good at this game, and haven't played it much, but I'd be interested in this sort of thing.

Anyway, I'd want to get it in here, especially since this is a low limit and the villain could be pretty weak as far as we know, maybe he's getting it in with bottom set or even worse. Obviously he could have the draw, and I don't know how strong we are vs that, but I imagine the odds are right to get it in.

Also, even if he has top set we still have a few outs right

[crack]

Even v the monster draw u aint that much of a dog eith middle set.

[MrDarling]

stove for omaha :
twodimes.net

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

OK, first thing I think we should discuss is what everyone wants to know at the start of the hand: what hands should we play, or what are good starting hands?

To answer this question, we have to examine what we're looking for. An analogy with Hold'em might help. In Hold'em, AA is the best hand, bottom line, and it's a huge favorite over all other hands. It derives this value from being at least an overpair to all other cards on the board, and one pair is frequently a winner in Hold'em. In Omaha, however, we're not shooting for one pair, and a bare AAxx hand isn't usually a real big favorite over four random cards. Does this mean starting hands don't matter? Quite the opposite, especially if the vast majority of the time we aren't getting all the money in preflop. The winning hands in Omaha are not one and two pair. They are straights, flushes, and full houses--Omaha is a drawing game. So what we should be looking for is hands that can have a better shot at making those types of hands. In other words, our three main criteria are connectedness, suitedness, and pair/set values.

1. Connectedness. Connectedness is a measure of how close our cards run together. 9876 is highly connected. K962 is not connected. This is actually our number one criteria for starting hands, trumping suitedness or pair/set value. This comes as a shock to many people, because hey, straights are weaker than both flushes and full houses! True, but there are two factors in straights' favor. First, they are much easier to make. And second, the biggest draws in Omaha are straight draws. In Hold'em, an open-ended straight has eight outs, and a flush draw has nine outs, so a flush draw is objectively better from an equity perspective. In Omaha, however, straight draws can have many more than eight outs in the form of "wrap-around" straight draws ("wraps" for short). For instance, say you have 9854 in your hand and 762 on the board. Now you can hit a 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, or T to fill your straight (a whopping 20 outs!). In fact, one of the most common ways all the money gets in the pot in Omaha is when two players hold the same straight (usually the current nut straight). However, thanks to wraps, you can hold the nut straight and still have outs to a better straight. Obviously, the more connected your hand is, the more likely it is that you will make a wrap, so it's easy to see why connectedness is our number one criteria for choosing which hands to play.

2. Suitedness. People love suited hands, especially double-suited hands, because that means they have two suits with which to draw at a flush. Flush draws are trickier in Omaha, though, because the only flush draws we're really comfortable with are to the nuts (usually the Ace-high flush draw). However, lower flushes can still have value, and having a suited hand can have other advantages that are not immediately apparent. For one thing, if you jam the pot with a hand like a set or a big draw and find yourself against someone with a bigger flush draw in the same suit as you, you have stolen two of his outs (maybe more if you have a straight-flush draw), which act as "blockers" to his flush. Another way suitedness helps draws on our last example where two players get all-in, both holding the nut straight. Here, having a flush draw gives you an additional way to win the pot. Even a back-door flush draw can add to your equity if you have something else to go with it, and players are much less apt to put you on a made flush on the river if there was not a flush draw in that suit on the flop. So, although non-nut flushes are not always hands to celebrate over, suitedness certainly helps our hand. And if we have the nut flush draw, our hand becomes pretty powerful in its own right.

3. Pair/set value. Sets are good hands in Omaha, but because there are some big straight and flush draws out there (a wrap+flush draw can be a favorite over a set on the flop), even a set is a sort of drawing hand; what you're really looking for is a full house. So obviously, bigger pairs are better, because they make bigger sets and full houses. Set-over-set confrontations are a little more common in Omaha than they are in Hold'em, so obviously we prefer the big pairs and are more wary with the small pairs (just as we are wary with non-nut straight and flush draws). One thing we have to distinguish between in Omaha is the overfull vs. the underfull house. An overfull is a full house where your set is bigger than your pair (ie AAAKK), whereas an underfull is a full house where your pair is bigger than your set (ie KKKAA). It's always better to have the overfull in Omaha, because it's much more likely to be the nuts or near-nuts. If you hold JT98 on a JJTxx board, you have the guy with TTxx in real trouble, as you have the nut full house and he has no outs (unless his xx is QQ, KK, or AA). The same goes if you have AAxx on a board like ATTxx (you have the best hand unless he has exactly TT). The moral of the story is, be much more likely to commit with an overfull rather than and undefull (although the underfull is still frequently good, just like something like a Q-high flush).

So what are some good hands?

Under the criteria we've selected, the best hands have high a degree of connectedness, options for big flushes, and chances to make the overfull house. So a real monster is a hand like [As Ad Js Td], which has good connectedness (a lot of nut straights and broadway options), two flush draws, both of which are to the nuts, and contains the best pair in the deck, and thus the best potential for top set and top overfull. A very good hand would be something like [Tc 9h 8h 7c] (something most players call a "rundown," or four sequential cards), which has awesome connectedness, and has two suits (high suitedness) for blocking or redraw purposes. Hands with one gap can be good (although we prefer the gap to be lower in the rundown), and connected cards with a pair can be good, for example [Jd Jc Th 9d]. A type of hand many players like is something like [As 8s 7d 6d], where we have a suited Ace with connected cards. There are not a lot of hard and fast guidelines for Omaha starting hands like there are for Hold'em, primarily because there are so many combinations!

One last point. Remember, you get four cards, twice as many as Hold'em, but you actually have six potential combinations. One good criteria for choosing whether to play a hand is to ask, "how many LIVE combos do I have?" A live combo is one in which the cards fit together in some way other than just two pair. A hand like [Jc Js 5d 4h] might look good, but it really only has two live combos (JJ and 54), whereas our monster hand [As Ad Jd Ts] has all six combos that can potentially make a big hand (AA, AJ for a straight, AT for a straight, JT for a straight, AJ for a flush, or AT for a flush). Obviously, the more likely a live combo is to make a NUT hand, the more we value it.

Questions, comments, criticism? Discuss.

[Red Rabbit]

Nice post, Diamond Cutter. I think one of the biggest problems I've had moving from hold 'em to Omaha is starting hand selection. As you said, there are a lot of hands which "look good" but far fewer which are worth playing and because no starting hand is ever a huge dog the temptation is to play a lot more hands than you would in hold 'em.

I heard an interview with a big Omaha player (can't remember who but it wasn't anybody I'd heard of before) and they were discussing none nut draws. The interviewer was asking if the interviewee believed that you should only ever draw to the nuts. The interviewee laughed at this and replied "you should chase a none nut draw as often as a none nuts hand will be good". I guess the problem comes from knowing when you have to have the nuts and when you can win with the second nuts or worse but this knowledge will only come from experience.

Anyway, I hope the study group continues as I'm wanting to improve my game. I doubt I'll be able to make comments on hands posted but I'm sure I'll be able to ask plenty of questions.

[crack]

Red Rabbit: You should comment on hands. If people post hands the best way to become a better player is to reply with how you would play it. Don't think that because you feel you are not "qualified" enough to give a correct answer means you should give no answer at all.

If you have flaws in your game then this is a good way to find them and people will be sure to let you know if they think you are making a mistake.

I think I mentioned in another thread that what a lot of people have problems with when switching is forgetting that two decent hold em hands do not necessarily make a good omaha hand.

For example, AQ77. With Omaha you really want to have all your cards working together as DC said. AJTTds, 6789 etc etc.

Obviously you can't just wait for your monster 4 card combo hands all the time and you will have to play some weaker hands to turn a profit, but it will all come with experience.

I think DC said above but I will reiterate and add:

Look at how your cards can work together to create a hand (T876, 9876, 679T) and look at how far away the cards are from each other to identify if you have any danglers in your hand.

A dangler is a card which adds very little to your hand such as AKJ3. The 3 cannot be involved in a straight draw with the K and J so you are in effect playing a 4 card game with 3 cards, if you get what I'm saying.

You basically want all 4 cards working together (5567, 8876).

Big pair hands are decent as well, such as KKQQ, QQJJ etc. You play these hands because when you flop a set , it's likely to be top set. I don't really know what players think of hands like 7766 yet but I am not too keen. Too many times you are f*cked when you get it all in.

So when you are about to play a hand, think of that along with all the other preflop decisions, who has raised, what are they likely to be raising with, who is behind me etc etc.

[Red Rabbit]

Red Rabbit: You should comment on hands. If people post hands the best way to become a better player is to reply with how you would play it. Don't think that because you feel you are not "qualified" enough to give a correct answer means you should give no answer at all.

If you have flaws in your game then this is a good way to find them and people will be sure to let you know if they think you are making a mistake.

Thank you for the encouragement. I guess I've spent too much time on 2+2 where you can often be attacked for voicing an opinion that differs from the "correct" answer. I'll make an effort to comment on hands from now on.

I don't really know what players think of hands like 7766 yet but I am not too keen. Too many times you are f*ck when you get it all in.

I don't mind the mid two pair hands if I can see a cheap flop and have position. I'll usually fold to a raise though. You have a chance to hit a set and there is a small amount of connectedness to the hand. I'd feel pretty comfortable if I managed to hit a set and an OESD on the flop. If you miss it's easily mucked.

So when you are about to play a hand, think of that along with all the other preflop decisions, who has raised, what are they likely to be raising with, who is behind me etc etc.

It's a good thing some skills transfer across all forms of poker.

I've been learning several forms of poker of the last few months to try and increase my overall understanding of the game. Omaha is probably the one that has given me the most trouble. For some reason I get on okay with omaha hi/lo (although it is still my weakest of the H.O.R.S.E games) but omaha hi plays quite differently. However, I'm not sure how much of this is due to one being a split game or because I play hi/lo as a limit game and hi only as pot limit.