PLO Tournament Hand

[Hurricane Ham]

Bored this afternoon, so on a whim decided to do an 8.80 360 person max PLO tournament. This hand came up about 5 hands into it. My lack of Omaha experience really showed, as I was completely lost as to what to do.

PokerStars Game #8037043222: Tournament #40452179, $8.00+$0.80 Omaha Pot Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/01/20 - 15:35:02 (ET)
Table '40452179 27' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: docbaby (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: JQXZBlank (1180 in chips)
Seat 3: Los_Ender (1540 in chips)
Seat 4: Schmo (1470 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: Patreque (1460 in chips)
Seat 6: HurricaneHam (1880 in chips)
Seat 7: LuckyCharmz2 (1510 in chips)
Seat 8: Boldrocket (1460 in chips)
Seat 9: VanCesc (1500 in chips)
HurricaneHam: posts small blind 10
LuckyCharmz2: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HurricaneHam [Kc 7s As 4h]
Boldrocket: calls 20
VanCesc: folds
docbaby: calls 20
JQXZBlank: folds
Los_Ender: calls 20
Schmo: folds
Patreque: calls 20
HurricaneHam: calls 10
Completing seems pretty standard with that many limpers. I'm basically looking for super strong hands, boat, good trips, pair+draw combos.
LuckyCharmz2: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c 6s Ks]
HurricaneHam:

I hit this flop pretty well. Two pair in Omaha, especially top and bottom, is never that strong a hand, especially in a 6 way pot. This I know. But that coupled with the nut flush draw gives me a pretty nice hand. Do I lead? Pot it? Check/call? Check/raise? How much should I be willing to put in this early in the hand?

I'm pretty sure the way I ended uo playing it really wasn't optimal, and although we don't really have any PLO regulars anymore, I'd be curious to hear what other people have to say about the hand.

[aaronw]

Well, I will start off with saying that I have almost 0 omaha experience. I think I would check here because this board has definately hit someone and you are likely to get raised if you bet. So I would probably check call a bet.

[crack]

No.

I'd probably lead here for about 2/3 the pot.

You can say this board probably hit somebody and although technically with 6 players in it probably did let's look at it in a bit more details.

First off can we say there is a good chance KK would raise it in this hand? I dunno, it's probably too early to tell.

The way I see this board you hold a K and a 4, which means that the chances of someone holding a set in this scenario has been reduced quite a bit.

Set of 6's - Yeah very possible but we cannot play scared of a set everytime

Straight draw - lets hope so

K's and 6's - it's possible.

So looking at this hand I don't think the board is too threatening and we have a monster here.

Check/Call is too weak and a Check raise while a strong move could potentially give 6 players a free card to outdraw us.

The only option here is to lead.

[TheSalche]

I agree with crack here, the fact that we have top two + NUT flush draw makes it less likely that we'll be raised. Somebody else might have the queen high draw, and they would certainly call with it rather than raise. The only thing we should be scared of here is a set of 6s, but note that we've still got the king as an out to that, and our flush draw.

If you get raised potish then I'd call and check/fold a blank turn

[Hurricane Ham]

Soon as the hand was done I realized that leading would have been better. I decided to check/raise pot instead, which isn't horrible but bloats the pot when I'm out of position. Plus I'm only going to get action from a set or maybe K6 with some other kind of draw, against reasonably sane Omaha players anyway.

PokerStars Game #8037043222: Tournament #40452179, $8.00+$0.80 Omaha Pot Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/01/20 - 15:35:02 (ET)
Table '40452179 27' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: docbaby (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: JQXZBlank (1180 in chips)
Seat 3: Los_Ender (1540 in chips)
Seat 4: Schmo (1470 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: Patreque (1460 in chips)
Seat 6: HurricaneHam (1880 in chips)
Seat 7: LuckyCharmz2 (1510 in chips)
Seat 8: Boldrocket (1460 in chips)
Seat 9: VanCesc (1500 in chips)
HurricaneHam: posts small blind 10
LuckyCharmz2: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HurricaneHam [Kc 7s As 4h]
Boldrocket: calls 20
VanCesc: folds
docbaby: calls 20
JQXZBlank: folds
Los_Ender: calls 20
Schmo: folds
Patreque: calls 20
HurricaneHam: calls 10
LuckyCharmz2: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c 6s Ks]
HurricaneHam: checks
LuckyCharmz2: checks
Boldrocket: checks
docbaby: bets 120
Los_Ender: folds
Patreque: folds
HurricaneHam: raises 360 to 480
LuckyCharmz2: folds
Boldrocket: folds
docbaby: calls 360
*** TURN *** [4c 6s Ks] [Ac]
HurricaneHam:

So three pair + nut flush draw...pretty much time to go with it? Villain's stack behind is the size of the pot. Because of my bloating the pot with the checkraise, am I more or less committed to this hand regardless of what I do? Can I even consider check/folding since the turn was a "blank"?

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Crack is a much better Omaha player than I am, and I personally think Omaha is a stupid game, but all I can think of on that board is to push it for all it's worth. Draws and redraws of every type, and a hand that might be good enough to win by itself.

[crack]

So he has now bet the pot and called a raise. This is why position is of huge importance in Omaha.

We now have a problem. If he does have a set of 6's then we are screwed and around a 2-1 underdog.

As I said leading was the best option. Now you have commited 20%+ of your stack and still not too sure where you are. I don't think you can check this here because if you did this to me I'd be potting it against you and make you fold your hand.

I don't think you can pot this either, because what does a pot accomplish? He will probably only fold hands we beat. There doesn't seem to be enough value to pot it. If it was a cash game then perhaps it's an option, but in a tournament I don't think this is a great move.

I think the best move to make would be some kind of blocking bet. The reason for this being.....

If he pushes all in you can get away from the hand
Stops him from taking the pot away from you with a worse hand
May make him call with worse hands
No free cards for him
Probably more reasons I can't think of at the moment

So I would go for blocking bet.

[Hurricane Ham]

Diamond, do you try and get it in on the flop, or on the turn? Pretty much as soon as possible?

Pot is 1080, he has 1000 behind Craig. Any reasonable bet I make is more or less pricing myself into the pot, no? If I bet out 200-300, he may just see it as weakness and push with lesser hands. Even if I bet 300 and he pushes, pot is now 2380 and I've only gotta call 700 more. He can show me a set, and I'd still have odds to call. I also kill a few of his boat outs with my 3 pair; kings and aces are no good to him.

Obviously this entire situation would be simplified if I didn't botch the flop, but having gotten to the turn now with an opponent who probably has a pretty good hand, I'm kind of stuck. I decided to pot it and get it all in, because I didn't really see any way I'm going to get away from that hand unless I check/fold, so I might as well make him have a super good hand to call me, right?

Funnily enough, he instacalled with 3457 rainbow, and managed to make his straight on the river. Omaha is dumb and bad. Given the way I played it, I probably see a set of sixes or K6/A6 more frequently. Thought it was a pretty crappy line, and really made me realize I have absolutely no clue when it comes to post flop play in Omaha.

PokerStars Game #8037043222: Tournament #40452179, $8.00+$0.80 Omaha Pot Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/01/20 - 15:35:02 (ET)
Table '40452179 27' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: docbaby (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: JQXZBlank (1180 in chips)
Seat 3: Los_Ender (1540 in chips)
Seat 4: Schmo (1470 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: Patreque (1460 in chips)
Seat 6: HurricaneHam (1880 in chips)
Seat 7: LuckyCharmz2 (1510 in chips)
Seat 8: Boldrocket (1460 in chips)
Seat 9: VanCesc (1500 in chips)
HurricaneHam: posts small blind 10
LuckyCharmz2: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HurricaneHam [Kc 7s As 4h]
Boldrocket: calls 20
VanCesc: folds
docbaby: calls 20
JQXZBlank: folds
Los_Ender: calls 20
Schmo: folds
Patreque: calls 20
HurricaneHam: calls 10
LuckyCharmz2: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c 6s Ks]
HurricaneHam: checks
LuckyCharmz2: checks
Boldrocket: checks
docbaby: bets 120
Los_Ender: folds
Patreque: folds
HurricaneHam: raises 360 to 480
LuckyCharmz2: folds
Boldrocket: folds
docbaby: calls 360
*** TURN *** [4c 6s Ks] [Ac]
HurricaneHam: bets 1080
docbaby: calls 1000 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [4c 6s Ks Ac] [5h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HurricaneHam: shows [Kc 7s As 4h] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
docbaby: shows [5d 7h 3d 4s] (a straight, Three to Seven)
docbaby collected 3080 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3080 | Rake 0
Board [4c 6s Ks Ac 5h]
Seat 1: docbaby showed [5d 7h 3d 4s] and won (3080) with a straight, Three to Seven
Seat 2: JQXZBlank folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Los_Ender folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Schmo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Patreque (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: HurricaneHam (small blind) showed [Kc 7s As 4h] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 7: LuckyCharmz2 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: Boldrocket folded on the Flop
Seat 9: VanCesc folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[crack]

True about the odds, however if you get it all in to the predicted set he should turn over then you now have 380 chips left with 10/20 blinds.

Also, against a set you are only just getting the odds to call (If i worked them out right, I am tired)

If you bet 300 and fold then you still have an alright stack at these blinds.


That said, something I did forget to consider. The buyin is only $8 so the players probably don't have much of a clue and will be playing less than stellar hands.

I do think against decent opp you will notice that they will not be drawing to straights (even wraps) with a flush draw on board.

[Hurricane Ham]

Heh, I just realized now that I said "I'd see K6/A6 much more often." That's all well and good, except I'm beating both of them. Duh.

So yeah, like you said, I see a set there against any halfway decent Omaha player, and leaves me just on the good side odds-wise of calling the all-in. I still think the problem with betting 300 into 1080 is that it looks so weak and would induce a lot of weaker hands to push, hands that I'm way ahead of like a crappier two pair, since sets are so unlikely given my holdings.

[crack]

Yeah maybe that is true ham, but I'd be worried that if you bet more then you have pretty much comitted yourself to the pot. With no info on the player we could find ourselves in a lot of trouble against decent opposition if we do this.

It's a difficult one, but as we know if you had played the flop optimally then we wouldn't need to worry about this situation