Getting Very Good

[Sentinel]

Hello again, here is the 2nd part of my opening thread.

I know there is no definitive answer to this - otherwise we'd all be winning WSOP but, out of curiosity:

1) People are at these boards, learning and teaching, and many clearly know the game well. Yet none (I assume) are professionals with millions in winnings but why not? They know EV, odds, position, hand reading, change gears, isolate opponents etc so what is it that they are lacking in comparison to the famous guys - or even the next big thing who no one has heard of just yet?

And this brings me onto my next point

I am not the best. Far, far, far from it. I also know my game isn't complete whilst being unaware of what it is I am missing. I only "know" there is more development to come because I went through the same process from amateur musician to professional.

I remember being "pretty good" but very 1 dimensional and limited compared to the musician I had become. I remember thinking I was at level x, ad studied all there is to study, or had certain opinions, only to later realise those opinions were wrong, that there were deeper levels despite studying all there was, and that I was nowhere near level x. Or I was at level x but it wasn't as high up as I thought it was!

So, considering I have amassed the basics and fundamental, the odds and stuff, as well as playing more and experimenting (which brings the all important LEARNING through experience - again the major factor thae led me to reach world class musician level) what more can I do to improve and to head towards my WSOP bracelets?

The only definitive areas I can think of right now are tells and reads. But they have their own problems:

Tells
As an online player, I can't really pick up on tells (I think you really have to focus on playing the cards) as they are incomplete. Eg: I use up my "time" regularly but it has nothing to do with weakness and everything to do with multi tasking (talking to gf, having a pee, making a drink, reading emails, checking prev hand history).

I haven't played in a B&M casino so cannot assess any physical tell ability.

Reads
Although this is something I try to improve. As an online player, I can't really define opponent's hands due to the amount of garbage opponents are willing to bet on - even going all in with 3 diamonds, hoping to hit the flush. Of course, I more often than not know when I'm beat, and am pretty good at spotting A10 - AK but that's it. If I guess AQ and it's AJ, I'm not put out. But often, that play I thought was KK actually ends up being Q9 or 55 and I am wide of the mark.

So what more can I/we do to improve? It's frustrating knowing there is more without knowing what it is - and having done all that you can thus far. I've joined forums, I've read the books, learnt the maths and I'm getting live practice etc. In fact, I could write a book on "How To Play Poker". It would read impressively, I would appear knowledgeable and it would contain all the conventional wisdoms and insights but it wouldn't change the fact that I can't practice the preachings.

And this was the same for my musical knowledge. I'd read articles, books, interviews and even from being intermediate, I could talk the talk and write a very good book on the matter. But it didn't mean I was half the musician I am now.

And here is the crux. From beginner musician to intermediate to advanced, world class, elite, I never realised how much I'd developed (and where weaknesses were earlier) until I'd reached that new level. It was a case of not knowing what you have until you have it.

I take heart from this because I started out as a rank donk - with no musical abilities whatsoever. Not even knowing if I was playing out of tune and yet I made it through. And along the way, dropped certain "pro" advice and felt confident enough to trust and develop my own outlook. And this bears well for poker. If I can get there! :D

So, if you could, just what more is there?

[supafrey]

They know EV, odds, position, hand reading, change gears, isolate opponents etc so what is it that they are lacking in comparison to the famous guys

It would read impressively, I would appear knowledgeable and it would contain all the conventional wisdoms and insights but it wouldn't change the fact that I can't practice the preachings.

Asked and answered.

[Sentinel]

Thx for replying.

Anyone else got any advice?

[MrDarling]

Funny, am also from the music world. But just like in poker I thought myself everything through hands on experience. And finally became a darn good engineer / mixer / producer (though far from top notch)

And just like in the music world it comes down to experience.
Theory will only take you this far, you need to see hands. You need to see million of hands.
The most important thing about poker is that its very hard for us to discuss when we analyze HH n vacuum since we miss the history at the table. We do not know your image. We do not know opponent image.
I play the same hand totally different against the different opponents and hopefully different the second time it comes on the same session.

For your Q about tells and reads. Don't try to put opponent on a specific hand. Try to put them on a range. The better you know opponent the more accurate this range can be. There are lots of 'tell' online if you observe betting pattern. As well as time it takes to react. A poker player best tool is the ability to remember opponent betting pattern. Physical tells though comes into play sometimes, rarely come into play between professionals.
If opponent always min c/r draw but slow play TP it becomes pretty easy to put him on a range. And most micro players fall into the habit of playing a hand the same way.
In the micro's, I think my cards matter around 70% of the time. The rest of the time position and reads on opponent matter more. The higher the level of play the less important your cards are.

Think about it, how often does your monsters go to Show down?

And last, don't diss this forum, there are lots of players here who makes $1000's a day (or at least a few, until they went busto)
There are lots here who are capable enough to win a major event.

Good luck.

Danny.

PS. Music business sucks now a days. We used to live from it but now records company are sitting tight on the money and hardly willing to spend a dime developing new acts or supporting old ones. Am actually in the process of thinking about selling my studio.

[Sentinel]

Danny,

Mega thx for the reply. It was very helpful and reassuring!

The main difference between music and poker is that what works in music rarely changes. You mix a certain way or play a certain note in a solo and it either works or it doesn't - regardless of whether it's done in practice or live. That experience will always stand you in good stead.

With poker though, not only do your opponents change from game to game, but everything changes the higher up the levels you go. Eg: you very rarely see a pro going all in if someone dares raise his 3xbb preflop bet (but veeeeery common in the lower levels). Hence, is there a risk that a lot of your experience is at risk of being obsolete? Is each new level like starting over?

As for playing hands totally different. I tried that. The times I've slow played, flat called or min raised with KK, AA, KA often means they get cracked. I am also reluctant to represent lower cards on the flop as it gives the opportunity for straights and flushes. But hey, maybe it is just experience. Right now I am not sure how many ways you can play a hand differently but I'll give it a go :D

You make 2 very interesting points that I'd like to discuss with you.

1) There are lots of 'tell' online if you observe betting pattern.
This is something I haven't mastered yet - even though I constantly check past hand histories. Right now, all that stick out are the obvious ones - like checking to the river and then trying to steal with a mega bet.

2) As well as time it takes to react.
I am not sure how much value I place on this aspect. Mainly because I take my time and it's often because I am checking hand histories, having a drink or whatever: and not related to the game or my hand.

Then there's connection speed to consider.

But as you say, maybe overtime and with more experience, patterns will emerge.

Once again, many thx for your excellent response.

BTW: I wasn't dissing anyone on the forum. I just wouldn't think a WSOP winner, pro with millions in the bank would be at a forum.

[supafrey]

THP has no millionaires (not from poker, atleast) but several other forums often get frequented by the rich live pros you see on tv. They don't stay very long - having to reiterate, reexplain and defend obviously correct information 100000 times gets tedious very, very quickly. If I can barely stand it, how could someone that has a 200/400nl game to get to?

[MrDarling]

Well, in music as well as in poker people react different to the moves you make (ie try to play a country tune in India and see if you get the same reaction as you do in Saint Louis)
There is no correct way to mix a tune or even to play an instrument. (again using India as an example, they actually use a different scale then the western world)

Betting pattern is a huge tell. when you do choose to bet in NL you can bet the min, 1/3 pot, 1/2 pot, 3/4 pot, pot or over bet.
When you study a player you'll notice they tend to keep one bet size to one kind of a hand.
For example some weak player tend to make big PSB bluff and weak value bet.
Some always min bet on a draw.
etc....

As for the time, if someone raised PF with a big hand, chances are he will not take a look at his favorite forum during that hand. So if someone raise Pf and then take long time to choose his bet size, its a tell. (sometimes of strength sometimes of weakness, you'd need to figure which for which player) and sometimes it just mean they multi table

Just a suggestion, especially for a beginner , don't only pay attention to hand you are involved with. If you want to study your opponent and not play your cards you need to see how they play. its actually easier to put people on hand rage when you are not involved with a hand. So instead of checking emails, study your opponent. Make notes. See how they act to different flops. See if they can't fold bottom pair. See if they like to slow play marginal hands etc....

Danny

[Sentinel]

Hi again,

Don't try to put opponent on a specific hand. Try to put them on a range.

This may sound numb but I get the impression that can cause confusion. If you put your opponent on a range of hands, say QK - AA then that if the flop holds any of these then you can start to panic when you hold pocket J and under as you don't know if he's hit to follow up his pre flop bet/call.

I may be wrong with my reads but it's less mind of a mind f^%k if I'm thinking KQ, KK, AJ - AA

Of course, being so limited may cost me money for not being so open minded but if I get a nasty flop that features a number if cards in a range, like JA9, then I'll be crapping my pants with pocket 10s and under. Even pocket Qs!

If I show weakness, I'll get taken down. If I bet too weakly, I can get called and allow my opponent to win.

If I get a flop like I did before, Q7Q, and I am holding 79 suited, though I have QQ77, I will have no idea how strong my hand is. I made a firm continuation bet of 40% of the pot and got called. And then my mind started to race: trips, A high, any over card, pocket pair 8+!

On a side note, rather than start a new thread, I have a question about tight aggression (my style) after a few beats.

How do you reccommend playing a middle pair after your bet has been called, or they've got to the pot first and made a bet (real or continuation)? Eg: you have J9 and flop falls 59K. I know it's situational but overall, what do you reccommend?

I have gone with playing them and been busted recently by the higher pair. And now I so wary that I doubt my FH in case there's a higher one out there!

[Jernej Zorec]

well u just cant put a player on specific hand online unless they are stupid to do 1 thing with only 1 hand.

as for ranges, u dont say ok i put him on AK, AJs+ or 55-TT
and when flops comes 5K7 u go OMG now he just hit a set or the king i fold.

u have to see how your hand plays against his range of hands
i suggest u download Pokerstove and play with that a little to get
the feel on how u stand in certain situations

[steffend]

Before the flop I will put people on a wide range of hands, but where I really think you can get information is on the flop, what happens there, will people bet their draws and how much, will they slow play a set, will they call big raises with their middle pair and so on.

I don´t regard myself as being very good reading people before the flop, but after the flop I think I have become quite good at reading people ( at least better than previus ) and I found myself being able to quite a few time call their exact hand or very close to.

[Sentinel]

I am plying tournys at $5 and cash games at 10/20 & 25/50.

So far, I am playing numptys who are willing to go broke with their A10 suited. Even though the flop reads 273.

And I have lost count of the times I have had a 2 pair situation, like 10J suited, hit a flop of 10J6, bet accordingly aggressive, and lost to a guy holding K6 as he lands his cowboy on the river.

You guys give great advice. Mega mega thx.