A Quick Guide to Stud 8-or-Better

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

This is another article in my series on the HORSE games. Stud-8 is a profoundly complex game and yet its precepts are remarkably simple. Better still, there are some great opportunities to win huge pots in this game, so study up and get ready to attack.


Concept #1: The Cardinal Rule of High-Low Games
The rule is simple, and the rule is this: only play hands that have a chance to SCOOP. That is, play hands that have a shot at winning the entire pot, not just half. Many times you will still end up with half, but having redraws and getting some scoops is crucial to success in both Omaha and Stud 8-or-Better. Conversely, the number one ticket to becoming a losing player is chronically overplaying one-way hands.

An old saying for Stud High-Low is "Three big or three little, but never three split, or three in the middle." This means it's better (by far) to play only hands that have a chance to win the whole pot.


Concept #2: Your Starting Hand
In Stud 8-or-Better, as in 7-Card Stud High and Omaha 8-or-Better, the decision to initially play or not is by far the most important. This is not to say the later streets are unimportant, but proper 3rd street play is necessary to play well on the subsequent streets. I'll make a quick rundown, in descending order of strength, the categories of starting hands in Stud 8-or-Better.

1. Rolled-up Trips or 3 to a Low Straight Flush
These hands are the prize ponies of Stud 8-or-Better, and both types of hands can potentially scoop large pots. Both can be played for any number of bets from any position on third street (the only reason I can see to ever fold the latter on third is if there are a lot of dead outs and the action has been very fierce before it gets to you... but this will probably happen only once or twice a year).

With three of a kind wired, where you might slowplay in Stud high, it's almost always incorrect to do so in Stud High-Low. The reason is that you never want to give players free cards that might cause you to lose half the pot. Just raise and re-raise for value, both on third and fourth streets, where there is little chance of you being behind.

Three to a low straight flush (ie 3 4 5 ) is a little trickier to play, in that you'd like to invite some dead money into the pot, especially if your low draw looks better than others'. From early positions it's sometimes better to just limp in and hope to invite some action, especially if there's a chance someone will raise behind you so you can trap players for an additional bet on third street. If some limpers have already entered the pot, you should then go ahead and raise and charge everyone an extra bet. If there have been some limpers and a raise before you, however, it's sometimes better just to call if you suspect the limpers will call one additional bet, but not two. It's just a simple matter of getting as many bets in the pot on 3rd street as possible--it doesn't matter where they come from. In any case, this category of hand can always be played strongly, and does very well in multi-way pots.

2. Three suited babies or Two Aces with a low kicker (2-8)
"Babies" are cards lower than 9's in this case. Both of these hand types are very strong, and are only slightly weaker than the category 1 hands. The only reason I could see for throwing away three suited babies is if your hand is very uncoordinated (ie 8-5-2), much of your suit is dead, and there is a lot of action before you; but that happens very rarely. Most of the time, you want to invite action with three suited babies, so you can play them pretty much like three to a low straight flush, particularly if you have the all-important Ace.

Two aces with a low kicker does well in many pots, but particularly so in heads-up pots. For one thing, AA alone will often win the high side of pot (and thus the entire pot if your opponent makes no low or a worse low than you), and you also have a chance to scoop if you catch some low cards. I would play this hand very fast on third street, raising and re-raising for value the whole way. Again, the idea is to charge your opponents a hefty fee for drawing against you.

One very good play to make with two Aces is available when you are the bring-in (usually this means you have AA2 with the 2 as your door card). Just bring-in the usual amount, and then re-raise an opponent's opening raise. Sometimes this will backfire and you'll get a bloated multi-way pot on 3rd, but that's ok because your hand is still well concealed. If you catch well on 4th you can get aggressive at that time.

3. Three to a low straight, no gaps
Examples of these types of hands include A23, 456, and 678. These hands are still very strong, especially if you have a dominating low, a lot of live outs, or an Ace for a backdoor card to make a high pair (also, having a two-flush helps, but it's hardly essential). These hands can usually be played for multiple bets on 3rd street, but don't go nuts with them, especially if you have a few of your outs dead or there are a lot of dangerous door cards out there.

567 and 678 are very nice against players you suspect may be playing high-only hands like big pairs, because the 9 (and 10 in the case of the latter) will give you a straight draw for high and still conceal the strength of your hand because your opponent may believe that this was a bad card for you. Additionally, someone who is drawing at a better low but with little chance for high can get into trouble against this hand if they brick on the later streets and you catch a backdoor low to scoop them.

4. Three to a low straight, one gap
Examples of these types of hands include A24, A34, 356, and 457. These hands can still be very good, but they require a little more caution than the previous category of hands, but many cards will make you a low draw, but fewer will make you a quality draw for high. With 235, for example, an A or 6 makes you a gut-shot straight, a 7 or 8 gives you a marginal low draw, but only a 4 will give you an up-and-down draw for high and low.

If there is a lot of action on the early streets, you want to make sure you are drawing to the BEST hand on at least one side (remember you can always back into another high or low to scoop the pot). If you catch bad on 4th street, you can take one off provided your opponents didn’t get much help either, but if you miss again on 5th, you should drop almost every time.

5. Three to a low straight, two gaps
These hands are a little more marginal in quality, and include cards with a double gap, like A45 or 367, and cards with two single gaps, like A35 or 357. You usually want to get in for one or two bets on 3rd street, and you would like for cards that fill your “gaps” to still be live. You will usually need improvement (and better improvement than your opponents) to continue beyond 4th street. Say you come in with 3-5-7 against an opponent with a 4 showing. If you catch something like a high card or even an 8 when your opponent hits something like an A, you should frequently fold. Notice that an 8 would give you no straight draw and only an 87-low draw, which is the bottom of the barrel for low hands. Save your money rather than risk committing more later if you hit a seemingly good card on 5th (even if you caught a 2 on 5th and your opponent had 4-A-K showing, there are many holdings he could have that would make him the favorite to scoop).

6. Low Pairs with an Ace Kicker or Low Kicker
These hands require more caution to play, and if you’re going to play with a small pair with a third card other than an A, it should give you a live 2-straight (ie 5-5-6 or 6-6-7). Small pairs with an A kicker play very well heads-up against an obvious big pair for several reasons.

1. Often, making any second pair will give you the best high hand.
2. Catching Aces up or trips will almost certainly give you the best high hand (unless your opponent makes trips).
3. You will frequently back into a low and possibly scoop on your opponent.
4. Even if you don’t make a low, catching a few good scare cards will often push an opponent off a high hand that does not improve.

The danger in these hands comes when a third player who is likely going low tags along in the pot, because now you’re probably second best in both directions. If you do not catch significant improvement on 4th street (or your opponents catch very well), you should bail out before you get trapped between the other players.

7. The Best High Hand
Usually this means having the highest pair possible based on door cards. Unlike in Stud high, these hands are marginal in value. In fact, if a bigger card raises before you, you should almost always fold, even if you have a kicker better than your opponent’s door card—in this game, you don’t want to play catch-up. These hands play best against a single opponent who is going low. They do not play well multi-way because you’ll usually end up with half the pot at best.

Be very careful if you’re playing something like Kings and your opponent catches an Ace or something like 2 or 3 to a straight flush. In fact, if you don’t improve, you should sometimes fold what you believe to be the best hand on 4th or 5th street because many low draws are statistical favorites against you. With high hands, there is often a danger that an opponent with a made draw is “freerolling” on you—that is, he has the low half locked up and still has a draw to beat you for high (even if that draw is as weak as runner-runner two pair). This danger increases in multi-way pots, so if for some reason you find yourself in a pot against two or three opponents going low and all of them catch babies on 4th street (and you don’t catch trips), you should fold faster than Superman on laundry day (to quote Bart Simpson), because your equity in the hand just took a huge dive.

There is also a good opportunity for deception when you have a big pair in the hole and a low door card, because many cards will either scare your opponent off a possibly better hand or appear harmless to your opponent when they actually help you (for instance, you start with KK in the hole and have a 3 up, and catch a K on 4th street. Your opponent will usually believe this was a good card for him). Also, you might catch a good second low card (again say you had K-K-3 and catch a 4 on 4th street, while your opponent started with a 6 up and catches an 8 on 4th street) and potentially force your opponent to fold a draw that could have won him half the pot and let him freeroll on you.

Needless to say, try to narrow the field to a single opponent, and then make your opponent pay for every card he has to draw, especially on 5th street and later when the bet size doubles (assuming your opponent does not have a board lock for low).

8. Miscellaneous Starting Hands
There are three types of hands I should mention here, none of which are especially good), and they are:

1. “Razz” type hands that include an Ace (low draws with little straight or flush potential). A-2-6 is an example.
2. Three cards to a 9 (7-8-9, 6-7-9, or 6-8-9).
3. A three-flush with two babies (with no more than one dead card in your suit).

These hands do alright in a few circumstances:

1. You are heads up with an obvious high hand.
2. You are against a weak opponent.
3. You have a chance to steal the antes or play heads-up with the bring-in.
4. You can get in on a nice multi-way pot for a single bet.

The idea here is you want to make a well-concealed scooping hand, win half of a big pot (thus turning a decent profit), or win the whole pot by forcing out the other players.

Concept #3: Stealing the Antes
This is usually a fairly essential concept in any Stud game, but it is perhaps of more importance in Stud 8-or-Better, especially in tournaments, where this strategy will help keep your stack intact and growing. Usually, this involves exploiting scare cards, which is our next concept, but the basic idea is to raise when no one has opened the pot before you, you have a scary door card, and no one else has a very good door card. Say a 2 brings-in, and a Q, an 8, a 7, and a 3 fold to you. You may have junk in the hole, but your door card is a 5. The two players to act after you are showing a 9 and a K, respectively. Now if you raise, it’s highly likely the other players will fold, leaving you heads-up with the bring-in. Sometimes, the bring-in gets stubborn, or you face resistance from another player with a bad door card. Now you simply have to wait and see what happens on 4th street. If he catches bad and you catch good, go ahead and bet again, as most of the time your opponent will fold. If he sticks around, give up the attempt, as now the cost of stealing becomes too high. Against players who call too much, use this sparingly, and usually as a semi-bluff (a perfect instance to play some of the marginal hands I listed above).

So just to recap, if no one has entered the pot before you, you have a good door card, and the players to act after you all have “bad” door cards (cards above 8, not including the A, obviously), you should consider raising to steal. In tournaments, this tends to be more successful, as players are very reluctant in the later stages to risk any chips with a good hand (since every bet counts).

I should also mention defending against ante steals. If you see a particular player utilizing the above strategy a lot, you will sometimes need to reraise with your marginal hands (any 3 low cards will sometimes do) on 3rd street to discourage him from doing so. Just be cautious, as I see some players go too far with this idea and draw to 8-6 low only to have to fold the river because they got careless.

Concept #4: Exploiting Scare Cards
This works better in Stud High-Low than most other forms of Poker because most of the time, it’s very easy to tell whether a particular card helped a player or not. Remember that in all forms of Stud, the best hand should usually take the lead in betting. If you have a 7 up with a 53 in the hole, and your opponent has come in with a 6 (representing a possible draw to a 6-low), if you catch an 8 on 4th street while he catches a J, you should go ahead and bet. Sometimes your opponent will fold and you will win right there, and sometimes he will chase his low (especially if he has a good draw to a 6), and he is not necessarily wrong to do so (although if he bricks again on 5th or you catch very well, he will usually have to fold), but your gutshot straight draw and 4 to a low will usually mean you are the favorite to win the pot, so you should bet. The 8 is a scary card for him, because it gives you many 4-straights and a likely draw to a low, while his J is not scary at all, since it is very unlikely that it could have helped any of his potential holdings.

Another example would come up when you start with something like 65 in the hole and have a 3 up, while your opponent has a 5 up. On 4th street you catch a 5 while your opponent catches an 8. On 5th street you catch a 6 and your opponent gets a 7. Although you have made a crappy two pair (which heads-up will still often win for high) while your opponent may have an essential cinch for low (and thus an essential freeroll on you), he doesn’t know this. His 875-low does not look that good against your board unless he has exactly 64 in the hole (unlikely since you have two 6’s). Betting here may force him to fold the best low hand because he fears he may be board locked and facing a made straight or a similar hand. That’s what I mean by exploiting scare cards. Note that the last situation is much more likely to work against a good player than a bad one, although against a bad player you’re probably still betting for value, and you could still catch runner-runner low to scoop him.

Concept #5: Recognizing Board Locks
This is very important, and may make or save you a lot of money. When you have a board lock, it means that regardless of what your opponent may have in the hole, you MUST have the best high or low. Look at the following examples:

You: (43) 865
Villain: (xx) 87A

In the above example, you currently have a board lock for low, because your 8-6 low beats any possible 8-7 low (although your opponent may have a very good draw to beat your low).

This can also work for high hands, like in the following example:

You: (KK) K92
Villain 1: (xx) 257
Villain 2: (xx) 762

There are no possible hands either opponent could currently have to beta your 3 Kings, although both are potentially freerolling on you. Recognizing when you have a board lock is imperative when you are “going to war,” which is our next concept.

Concept #6: When to “Go To War”
Sometimes there will be multiple bets between several players on several streets in this game, which is usually when you have your most potentially profitable situations… assuming you have a hand that is worthy of all that action. Otherwise, these situations are likely to wreak havoc on your bankroll.

Obviously, when you have a strong board lock in either direction in a multi-way pot, you should put in as many bets as you can. But, often times you will want to go to war when you don’t even have a made hand yet. Consider a situation on 5th street that looks something like this:

You: (As 2s) 3s 4s Kd
Villain 1: (xx) 8c 6d 3h
Villain 2: (xx) Qd Qh Js
Villain 3: (xx) Ah 6c 9h
In that instance, you should be more than willing to put in 4 bets on 5th street, because you have a fantastic draw to scoop the pot, and your equity gives you an edge over the other players (note that any spade gives you an A-high flush, any 5 gives you a wheel, and any low card gives you a “perfect” chance to improve your low). This is much the same idea as putting in multiple bets on the flop in limit Hold’em on the flop in a mutliway pot when you hold something like a flush draw with a gutshot straight draw, or a similarly strong hand with good equity against multiple opponents.

Also, in Stud 8-or-Better, it is very rare that you will get quartered (that is, someone holds the same low as you, so you split the low half), particularly compared with Omaha 8-or-Better, so in a 3-way pot you should go ahead and cap with the likely-best low even if one opponent has the high side locked up and the other player is also going low, where you might not in Omaha.

Concept #7: Basic Play on the Later Streets
If you only play quality starting cards on 3rd street, much of the plays on later streets will become “automatic,” but you should still be careful not to miss bets when you have an edge, because especially when you only get half the pot, you want to maximize your profit and minimize the punch of the rake.

4th Street: On this street, if you improve and have either the best hand or the best draw, your goal is to get a lot of bets into the pot. You usually want to bet your strong draws in this game, even if an opponent currently has a better high. In fact, with something like (54) 32 vs. a single opponent who is showing KK, I am usually willing to cap 4th street, because any low card will usually give me an unbeatable low and a chance to freeroll on him. Conversely, if you catch bad or your opponents catch very well, you will usually want to either get out or take one card off cheaply. You should only take an extra card if:

1. You had a very strong 3-card draw,
2. Most of the cards you need are still live, and
3. If you improve on 5th, you’re likely to have the BEST draw

5th Street: This is where the bet doubles and most of the critical decisions are made. If you came in with even a premium 3-card draw and bricked twice, do not continue to draw, because it is very expensive to do so and you’ll usually have to catch perfect twice to win. Heads-up, this is bad. Multi-way, it’s potentially suicidal. By contrast, if you improved on 5th street, or still have the best drawing hand, you should usually play aggressively on this street. Remember that many low draws still have very high equity against a made 8-low (especially bad lows like 8-7 and 8-6), and that you will often be freerolling on a player who started going high and now has no chance to backdoor a low). Usually, if you’re going to continue drawing on 5th street, you’re committing yourself to going all the way to the river (although some exceptions will inevitably apply), so you had best make sure that you’re drawing to the best hand, preferably a scooping-type hand. Occasionally on 5th street, if you’re second to act and the first player has bet, you should consider raising to force out draws that might beat you if they hit exceptionally well (this works best if you have a scary board). Say, for instance, that you made an 8-high straight on 5th street and the 1st bettor has some kind of high hand (but one that probably doesn’t beat yours, but potentially may on a later street). Against another player or two going low (but who hasn’t got there yet), you should raise for two reasons:

1. You are raising for value against the player going high, and
2. You do not want let someone else make a better low that may cost you half the pot, or the entire pot if the player going high backs into a better high hand.

6th Street and the River: Most often, these streets play themselves based on your holdings. If you have the best hand multi-way or the best one-way hand heads-up but are freerolling on your opponent, you should bet and raise for value. By contrast, if you’re still drawing or if your opponent is likely freerolling on you, you should try to keep the betting to a minimum. Occasionally, you may have to fold on 6th street if the betting gets very scary, but this will not happen especially frequently. The river is easy. If you have the best hand, bet and raise! But don’t miss bets when you could make more… which is covered in our final concept.

Concept #8: Position and Trapping Dead Money in the Middle
Being last to act is often a major advantage in this game because it gives you a chance to win extra bets when you otherwise could not have. For example, say the pot is 4-handed on the river, and you have the best low and are last to act. The first player has the best high hand and bets. The other two players to act before you have worse highs and lows, but they don’t know it, and call one bet. You now have an easy raise that may “trap” the two middle players into sticking in an extra bet if the high hand doesn’t raise back (you may trap them for as many as 3 extra bets if they get stubborn when the high hand does raise). It’s important to get money out of these players when you know you’re only going to win half the pot, because the only profit you’ll win will come from them.

Conversely, say you were second to act in the same situation. Here, you should often just call the high hand’s bet if you believe calling will induce action from the other worse lows. However, if the players are loose and will probably call anyway, you should raise and try to trap them for extra bets.

Now say you’re second to act, but you have a hand that is probably the best low AND the best high. Should you just call and try to get action from the other players, or should you raise? The answer: whatever you think will get more money in the pot. If you KNEW that if you called, both other players would call, but not if you raised, AND if you knew the high hand would just call your raise and not reraise, you should just call, because calling earns you two extra bets where raising would only earn you one. But, if the high hand will continue raising to the cap, you would want to raise, because that would win you THREE extra bets. Confused yet? You’ll get it better when you see it happen a few times.

Just remember, it’s all about trapping the dead money. That’s where your profits come from.

That concludes the basic tutorial. If I've missed anything or anyone has questions, please feel free to post them.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

bump

[crack]

Very good basic Stud 8 Strategy. I can't really see many people failing to make a profit if they follow that, probably even at higher levels.

I play a little differently from that, but for a beginner that's a good article and well worth reading.

[misterjokerboy]

I remember seeing this before, thanks for bumping it, as this is one of the other games that I'd like to learn more about. I'll read it properly when I have more time.

It looks like there's a lot of useful information there, so thanks for going to the effort to post it.

Same goes for the Omaha 8 or better one you've done as well. Maybe this should be stickied like that one.

[HalfSugar]

I think I may actually try this crazy game. I've been meaning to get away from purely playing holdem for ages and now I have a resource to do so.

[TheSalche]

Nice post cutter, 8ob advice always appreciated by me ... maybe someday I'll decide to give it more of a shot.

[Felting]

great post, been playing O 8/b and after reading your post I've figured out some flaws in my thinking about stud 8/b.

Would you suggest any change in strategy for stud 8/b tourney's from your basic approach?

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

great post, been playing O 8/b and after reading your post I've figured out some flaws in my thinking about stud 8/b.

Would you suggest any change in strategy for stud 8/b tourney's from your basic approach?

In the later stages, steal the antes more. A lot more. Tournament strategy in late stage basically comes down to exploting scare cards, and in battles between low cards frequently plays like a Razz tournament (for instance, if it's folded to you and you have an exposed Ace, strongly consider raising almost regardless of your hole cards). When short-handed, do not overlook the value of high hands, because some people will still overplay a hand like 8-5-2 against a pair of Kings like it's the nuts, when in reality the Kings are a huge favorite to win high, and a decent favorite to scoop, especially if the 8 catches a card like a T, J, or Q on 4th street. Conversely, do not overplay your own high hand when heads up with a low draw that is bound to be a favorite or freerolling on you. Chasing can eat up too many chips, so you'll probably have to fold 4th and 5th a little more than you might in a cash game. But when you're playing 5-handed and below, good Stud-8 strategy more closely resembles good Stud high strategy.

Other than that, just try to play good Stud-8 strategy, because most people will still get it wrong. Good tournament strategy for Stud-8 is pretty much like good tournament strategy for any game: steal in position whenever you can, pound on the short stacks afraid to bust, and avoid big confrontations without a solid hand.

[crack]

Uh oh, with more experience I can see a few holes in this strategy :\

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Uh oh, with more experience I can see a few holes in this strategy :\

I never claimed it was unexploitable. It simply avoids most of the mistakes that many Stud-8 players make and aims to exploit them.

fwiw, this basic strategy (obviously with some adjustment and variation based on experience) has allowed me to beat games from $1/$2 all the way up to $10/$20.

I am curious, though. What specific holes do you see?

[crack]

Oh nah, not slagging it off. I was drinking last night so I thought I would leave the holes till today when my head was clear, but wanted to leave a reminder so I would come back to it.

It's a pretty good strategy, but here it is. The numbers refer to your chapters.

1) You are really best off raising this up front most of the time unless you have a LAG on your left who is the type that after a few limps will try and represent aces with the A up when he has a 3 low. The reason is because in passive games, if people do have a 3 low that you shouldn't play to a raise, like 872 they will call raises with it. Also, you can get the extra bet in if someone raises to your right. If you just call then the raise comes from a player to your right you can't rr for the extra bet because you don't want to knock people out.

3) A23 is not a very strong hand at all unless it is suited. 456 is and can be played for multiple bets, but you are best of limping A23 because it's just a one way hand. It's no better than A45.

4) If you brick and even one player catches what looks like a low draw (Unless he was the bring in) you should probably not peel on 4. You are a card behind and unless you pick up a 3 flush or pair to go with your 3 low and 3 straight it's probably a losing play to peel unless there is a shitload in the pot and you can't get raised behind.

6) You didn't mention that while these hands are worth playing, If a Q raises it up front, you have a few low cards behind you and your trip card is out (556 and a 5 is dead) you should probably just muck these hands because you cut out a lot of options to scoop and you are right, you are often in bad shape both ways.

8) A26 is definitely worth playing at Stud 8. I would say it is a good hand. Yeah the cardinal rule is to play for the whole pot, but if you have people drawing to 8's and 7's you have equity, and you also have the A to go high. You aren't raising it but I am calling double bets with it unless a lot of my low cards I need are dead.

9's are never ever good, with one instance perhaps 789 with 6's, T's, J's and 5's all live you are in LP and can get in on the cheap without getting raised behind.

Even with 2 or 3 dead flush cards, I still play the hands like K54 only if I can get in for the minimum and I am in late position. I usually muck these hands up front in an aggressive game.

Concept 3 - Really don't like this. if you do have junk in the hole with the 5 up and you have the bring in a K and a 9, you are best off just mucking them I think.

Reason being you get in trouble trying to represent a draw, The K or 9 may rr to isolate what they think is a draw if they have a pair and the bring in may often call. Just muck them and exploit the proper scare cards, like the A. Yes you want to open raise with the marginals in these spots but not just nothing.

Concept 7 - Not sure what you mean by best draw on 4th. My friend told me a common mistake people make is to either pump the pot with the best low draw or try and force out another low draw. You should only raise on 4 with low draws if you have a straight draw to go with it.

Nothing too major, but I think the above may improve your game.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Oh nah, not slagging it off. I was drinking last night so I thought I would leave the holes till today when my head was clear, but wanted to leave a reminder so I would come back to it.

It's a pretty good strategy, but here it is. The numbers refer to your chapters.

1) You are really best off raising this up front most of the time unless you have a LAG on your left who is the type that after a few limps will try and represent aces with the A up when he has a 3 low. The reason is because in passive games, if people do have a 3 low that you shouldn't play to a raise, like 872 they will call raises with it. Also, you can get the extra bet in if someone raises to your right. If you just call then the raise comes from a player to your right you can't rr for the extra bet because you don't want to knock people out.

3) A23 is not a very strong hand at all unless it is suited. 456 is and can be played for multiple bets, but you are best of limping A23 because it's just a one way hand. It's no better than A45.

4) If you brick and even one player catches what looks like a low draw (Unless he was the bring in) you should probably not peel on 4. You are a card behind and unless you pick up a 3 flush or pair to go with your 3 low and 3 straight it's probably a losing play to peel unless there is a shitload in the pot and you can't get raised behind.

6) You didn't mention that while these hands are worth playing, If a Q raises it up front, you have a few low cards behind you and your trip card is out (556 and a 5 is dead) you should probably just muck these hands because you cut out a lot of options to scoop and you are right, you are often in bad shape both ways.

8) A26 is definitely worth playing at Stud 8. I would say it is a good hand. Yeah the cardinal rule is to play for the whole pot, but if you have people drawing to 8's and 7's you have equity, and you also have the A to go high. You aren't raising it but I am calling double bets with it unless a lot of my low cards I need are dead.

9's are never ever good, with one instance perhaps 789 with 6's, T's, J's and 5's all live you are in LP and can get in on the cheap without getting raised behind.

Even with 2 or 3 dead flush cards, I still play the hands like K54 only if I can get in for the minimum and I am in late position. I usually muck these hands up front in an aggressive game.

Concept 3 - Really don't like this. if you do have junk in the hole with the 5 up and you have the bring in a K and a 9, you are best off just mucking them I think.

Reason being you get in trouble trying to represent a draw, The K or 9 may rr to isolate what they think is a draw if they have a pair and the bring in may often call. Just muck them and exploit the proper scare cards, like the A. Yes you want to open raise with the marginals in these spots but not just nothing.

Concept 7 - Not sure what you mean by best draw on 4th. My friend told me a common mistake people make is to either pump the pot with the best low draw or try and force out another low draw. You should only raise on 4 with low draws if you have a straight draw to go with it.

Nothing too major, but I think the above may improve your game.

I agree with all your points. When I was talking about 3-flush with high cards or three cards to a 9, I should specify that this is very dependent on your door card.

And yes, I should clarify that the "best draw" on 4th means a good two-way draw. You should only pump a pure low draw against a high hand if your board is good and you think your opponent may fold his hand simply if you play aggressively. But yes, pumping a pot with 8732 against an obvious pair of Kings is a huge leak.

Concept 3 describes circumstances where you might consider a steal, but I do not advocate always stealing simply because you have the only low door card remaining. However, if you are going to steal, those are probably the type of circumstances you are going to look for. Stealing with the last low door card is probably much more important in tournaments than in cash games.

[crack]

From my experience, Concept 3 doesn't seem to work. Perhaps in tournaments with real tight players to your left, but in cash games it's a losing play I think.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Concept 3 is probably not very important in full ring cash games, but short-handed and in tournaments (esp. near the bubble), ante stealing really improves win rate, and also may earn you more action on your big hands. This is a lesson I took from stories about how Ted Forrest plays the Stud games.

[clarky]

xDiamond_CutteRx, in a game of stud 8 or better, what if you are in a late position with a bad cards and at the same time the pot is unopened, will you limp in?

Is it good that whoever brought in could have any three cards. Although I guess this would be more for Sng's and MTT's than cash games. Looks like this could be a hole in my game.