Omaha H/L question

[HalfSugar]

Let's say we are holding A29J and for now we are ignoring suits. I think to see a flop with this you'd need to be the unraised BB but bear with me.

Let's say the flop is 458.

How hard (if at all) are we betting this flop, say, 4-handed? We cannot lose the low but we really don't have any sort of high draw (ignoring suits for now) other than if we luck out and hit the wheel or runner runner a straight/trips.

The reason I ask is that although we cannot lose the low, we can obviously get quartered which is going to lose us money assuming not every player is calling every bet to the end.

I really don't play a lot of Omaha H/L but I figure this is a fairly important thing to know if I ever do start dabbling..........

Over to you DC/crack

[MrDarling]

I'm not DC or crack but I'll give it a shot.
first, ignoring suit in omaha is unheard of.
2nd, agreed that you should usually don't see a flop with this hand, unless you can "steal" / value raise it against the right blinds from BTN.

now for some questions :
Is this limit or PL?
What are the other players levels? Will they pay to SD with A3 here?
Would they raise A245, A236?
Would they raise 3679 or just random 67 here?

Generally, if all you have is bottom nut, with no draws to high and there is a lot of action you should be willing to let it go figuring you're drawing to quarter pot at best.

[HalfSugar]

Generally, if all you have is bottom nut, with no draws to high and there is a lot of action you should be willing to let it go figuring you're drawing to quarter pot at best.

That's kind of what I was shooting for by dumbing it down loads. Also, by ignoring suits, I was trying to illustrate that our chance of making a high is poor.

One thing I did miss out is that I wanted to apply this to PLO8 rather than FL.

I'm just trying to determine how much I should be valuing a strong low which has little chance of a scoop.

EDIT - thinking about it, that's a fairly dumb thing to be trying to determine since I'm only drawing to half the pot at best. I guess I have a lot to learn

[MrDarling]

It really pays to know your opponents. In the low levels you'll probably see people raising here and will to get stacked with naked A3. However competent player will never raise here a naked A2, but might raise a A67 trying to buy the low part ...

[MrDarling]

As an example for difference of opponent :
In the qualifier to FTOPS PL hi/lo I cruised easily to a win since player did raise naked bottom nut. However in the event it self I got owned when I flopped nut-nut (something like A256 on 347) and got a call.
However I got pot raised when the turn paired. Now I don't have nut-nut but my opponent might raise with just the hi nut (ie FH) and his range is really tight to have nut-nut on me.
So I called, and called the riv shove and he did have A244.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

In limit, most of the time we're going to be check-calling with this hand to the river unless no one bets the flop or something else weird develops.

For instance, if you check and it gets checked around, consider betting the turn.

If there is a bet and both other opponents call the flop, consider trying to get in two bets on the turn if a safe card comes. Remember we don't have the low locked up, because we can get counterfeit with the A or 2, and we can get quartered like you said.

[HalfSugar]

Remember we don't have the low locked up, because we can get counterfeit with the A or 2

You know what's scary? I hadn't even noticed that.

I think I'd better try the $1 PLO8 SnGs before I lose my life savings being a donk.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Yeah in PLO8, this is either a check/call or a check/fold depending on the circumstances.

[crack]

It all depends really in all the different forms of this game.

In a limit cash game I am going to call a raise with this hand/play it. In a PL cash game I am probably going to call a small raise in position with this hand. OOP I may limp and then fold to a raise and 2/3 callers.

First off it depends on the stakes/players you are up against. If it is in a loose game where people will likely play A3 then it will be worth a call. If it is in a decent game against good opposition then they probably won't be leaving home without an A2 and then your hand has gone way down in value because you have no backup low card.

Tournament PLO8 is going to vary my play with it quite a bit, just because chips are a lot more precious in a tournament. I may even muck this if my stack isn't too big.

Limit tournament I am probably still going to play it.

This info is probably not what you are looking for. In fact, you are looking for postflop, but good selection of starting hands preflop is very important.

As DC said, it's going to take a lot for me to fold this hand in a limit game, for example there isn't a lot in the pot and on the turn it's gone bet, raise, overcall..... Then I guess it's an easy muck unless the turn was a T of course giving you an OESD for high or a 3.

PL on the other hand is slightly different. If we are OOP then we are in trouble and I hate this hand. Basically, I am not going to commit a lot of chips to this hand unless I am in a loose game and know the players are easily capable of getting involved without the nut low.

Tournament PLO8, depending on the action I am probably out.

So to summarise..
You really want to be playing this hand in position. You never bet this against 3 opponents.
You don't want to be investing too many chips on the flop.
This hand is probably better played in Limit cash games than PL tournaments.

Overall, it has some value against weaker players but against good players it's not that great.

My two cents.

[MrDarling]

yeah when I said naked A2 or A3 it means not only not high draws but also no low redraws. In this game your hand get counterfeited some of the time.

And like I said, depend on suit, I probably muck this hand PF from EP unless a very soft passive game.

[HalfSugar]

Some useful stuff there, thanks.

I think my starting hand selection has improved a lot lately (remember A29J was an example - I would not play that without at least the ace being suited and depending on the action that has gone before) but I am still spewing chips in various places.

My buddy leant me Super System recently so I might have a flick through the PLO8 section if there is one and see what nuggets I can find. I have to be honest though, what I've read in SS so far has been, well, awful in places

[crack]

Yeah, a suited A in your hand is a nice combo to have obviously, but to be honest, in the small games that you are playing (Limit) then the naked A2 is probably still worth something.

PLO8 is a different beast all together and in big bet poker the hand really does go down in value (but still worth a call at small stakes preflop imo).

Don't bother with SS. If you really want to improve your omaha game then by a book called Omaha Poker by Bob Ciaffone. It covers all forms of the game. The advice given is obviously ABC standard stuff, but it will help you build a solid foundation at all the omaha games.