Just how I've been running lately

[golddog]

For background, tileman is an idiot, raising/betting with nothing or very weak hands consistently. 100%
sure I have him on the flop.

I don't know, I'm just getting discouraged, running like this.

Stage #1501453392: Omaha Hi/Lo Normal $0.25/$0.50 - 2009-06-27 00:58:15 (ET)
Table: ROUGE RD (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - BIGAL316 ($5.12 in chips)
Seat 6 - AGOLDDOG ($3.40 in chips)
Seat 7 - ROGUERAT ($10.32 in chips)
Seat 9 - THETILEMAN ($10.80 in chips)
Seat 1 - FARMERTOM ($11.94 in chips)
Seat 2 - MARK IT ZERO ($16.65 in chips)
Seat 3 - CHAY290 ($15.10 in chips)
Seat 4 - RUT ROW ($34.43 in chips)
AGOLDDOG - Posts small blind $0.10
ROGUERAT - Posts big blind $0.25
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to AGOLDDOG [9d Qd As 7s]
THETILEMAN - Raises $0.50 to $0.50
FARMERTOM - Folds
MARK IT ZERO - Folds
CHAY290 - Folds
RUT ROW - Folds
BIGAL316 - Folds
AGOLDDOG - Calls $0.40
ROGUERAT - Folds
*** FLOP *** [7d Jh Ah]
AGOLDDOG - Checks
THETILEMAN - Bets $0.25
AGOLDDOG - Raises $0.50 to $0.50
THETILEMAN - Raises $0.50 to $0.75
AGOLDDOG - Raises $0.50 to $1
THETILEMAN - Calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [7d Jh Ah] [5s]
AGOLDDOG - Bets $0.50
THETILEMAN - Raises $1 to $1
AGOLDDOG - Raises $1 to $1.50
THETILEMAN - Raises $1 to $2
AGOLDDOG - All-In $0.40
THETILEMAN - returned ($0.10) : not called
*** RIVER *** [7d Jh Ah 5s] [8s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AGOLDDOG - Shows [9d Qd As 7s] (Two Pair, aces and sevens)
THETILEMAN - Shows [3h Ac Qs 8h] (Two Pair, aces and eights)
THETILEMAN Collects $6.70 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($7.05) | Rake ($0.35)
Board [7d Jh Ah 5s 8s]

Seat 1: FARMERTOM Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: MARK IT ZERO Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: CHAY290 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: RUT ROW Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: BIGAL316 (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: AGOLDDOG (small blind) HI:lost with Two Pair, aces and sevens [9d Qd As 7s - P:As,B:Ah,P:7s,B:7d,B:Jh]
Seat 7: ROGUERAT (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: THETILEMAN won Total ($6.70) HI:($3.35) with Two Pair, aces and eights [3h Ac Qs 8h - B:Ah,P:Ac,B:8s,P:8h,B:Jh] LO:($3.35) [B:Ah,P:3h,B:5s,B:7d,P:8h]

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Even so, fold preflop please. Your hand is rubbish.

[Assistance]

its actually a decent hand
vs any 2 big cards and other 2 cards being sooted
your a 53% favorite, and that would be giving him extra credit.

however

if you check / check the flop to see if another heart or low card peels off, you would have simply called down and saved some money. The re-raising is a leak in your game.

when your playing against an opponent that you know is going to be the sucker for the night, take small shots at them till you actually do have the absolute nuts.

[HalfSugar]

its actually a decent hand
vs any 2 big cards and other 2 cards being sooted
your a 53% favorite, and that would be giving him extra credit.

Explain how [9d Qd As 7s] is good - what range are you putting your opponent on to come to being a 53% favourite?!

[Assistance]

two big premium(A,K,Q,J) cards and two suited (xx)

its good cause you can have the nut flush
which as far as I know is a good hand?

9dQdAs7s vs *h*hBB = 53%

[HalfSugar]

its good cause you can have the nut flush
which as far as I know is a good hand?

I'm asking a genuine question, don't get pissy.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

two big premium(A,K,Q,J) cards and two suited (xx)

its good cause you can have the nut flush
which as far as I know is a good hand?

9dQdAs7s vs *h*hBB = 53%

If his range is literally any four, maybe. But that's unlikely.

And nut flush possibility is about ALL this hand has going. Almost no low potential, and very little connection. That crap just doesn't cut it in Omaha, especially OOP.

[golddog]

I am trying to learn the game, thanks for the feedback. But, wouldn't you say against an opponent who you know to be loose and aggressive, you should widen your range, and play back at him when you hit?

Anyway, the point of this was just to blow off a bit of steam. This guy's M.O. the whole night was to raise preflop, bet/raise flop with any part of it, then a) lose a fair-sized pot against anyone else or b) catch his card against me and win a fair-sized pot.

OK, that's a bit inaccurate, but it seemed that way at the time.

Thanks again for the feedback, though.[/i]

[golddog]

I was thinking about the feedback a little more overnight. Here's where my thought process was, maybe you guys can help me fix a leak.

In 3 hours or so of playing with this guy, I only remember him folding PF once, UTG. Of the other hands, there were maybe a handful of times he check/called the flop. I'd guess that 70% of the time, his post-flop action was to bet/raise when it came to him. He was able to pick up quite a few small pots this way, and got lots of action, since he often showed down weak hands.

So, taking all that into account, I'm thinking:

Some of the time, I'm going to totally miss the flop and check/fold to his bet. -1 Big Bet, but just folding is -.2.

Some of the time, I'm going to come into a draw and check/call him. Of those times, I'm going to be able to get huge action from him when I hit, and check/fold river when I don't. Not sure if this is plus EV for the number of times I'm going to lose 3 BBs.

Some of the time, I'm going to hit the flop, and get huge action all the way down. Seems like that percentage of the time is big enough to be +EV (?).

Another thing that clicked with me is I called totally on a player-dependent basis. I was thinking along the lines above against this specific player.

Anyway, I'm sure Dave and Sugar are right, and I need to re-think how I approach this part of the game.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Some of the time, I'm going to hit the flop, and get huge action all the way down. Seems like that percentage of the time is big enough to be +EV (?).

That's potentially true, but this is a split pot game, and heads-up, you're going to split a lot more pots than you might think, which usually translates to a loss from the rake.

Also, folding is EV neutral. You shouldn't count what you have "invested," because that's dead money in the pot now.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but it sounds to me like you're just setting yourself up to get tilted and justify playing any four cards against this kind of player because you might hit big and get paid. You should loosen up against this type of player, yes, but there just isn't really that much room for creativity in O8 against loose bad players.

[golddog]

Not so much tilted, just disappointed. You're right though, I didn't put enough consideration into the split-pot aspect when thinking through my approach to somebody like this.

Since a low isn't guaranteed, if we have factors in our favor like position, unraised pot, maybe other things, should our standards be a little lower to play a hand which skews toward the high-end? Or is the margin between no qualifying low boards and qualifying so low that it's not worth worrying about?

Maybe the thing I'm wondering is what really is the chance there will be no low possible or made?

Anyway, thanks again. Enjoy your discussions on the Omaha world.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Playing hands with "high only" potential basically means four cards above an 8. Anything lower really hurts your hand because it only increases the chance that when you hit, a low will be possible. So A-Q-9-7 is total crap, because it's not connected, and the 7 is a big anchor on the straight value. Even A-Q-T-9 would be a big improvement.

Also, no low will be possible a little less than 40% of the time, so high only hands can be decent, especially multi-way where it's likely a lot of low cards are dead. Also, any time no low is possible, a straight or a full house will be possible, so even among the high only hands it's really only profitable to play pretty good combos, like KKQJ or AKQJ.

[crack]

I haven't really read what your thought process was because I am tired but I looked at the hand and you misplayed it.

Even though he is loose, you have a crappy hand in crappy position. Then you go to war with it on a flop like that?

You have no low draw and might not even be good for high.

Fold Pre and if I accidentally called then I am not sticking a shit ton of bets in like you did.

[golddog]

Sorry, been away for a bit. The light bulb is going off though.

The way I was looking at it that night, I knew I was ahead and wanted to make him pay to draw. However, as you guys pointed out, what I should've been realizing is that he likely has almost half the deck to make a low, and there goes half the pot.

If he also doesn't have a low draw by some miracle, he very likely will catch a better two pair with pretty much the other half of the deck, so either way, I've made about the worst plays you can make.

Much more of a drawy game than HE, I'll have to stick that in the memory bank and work with it.

Crack, Diamond, Sugar, et al++. Thanks guys.