Two hands from an 8-game tourney

[HalfSugar]

Ug, 125th of 6,000 in a big 8-game freeroll tourney at Stars. Here are a couple of the trickier spots I encountered:

PokerStars Game #35319414200: Tournament #210670262, Freeroll 8-Game (Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit) - Level XVII (160/320) - 2009/11/13 19:17:10 ET
Table '210670262 733' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: mieremet565 (32948 in chips)
Seat 2: Firewlker (4618 in chips)
Seat 3: carro1 (10944 in chips)
Seat 4: GenoTHP (2862 in chips)
Seat 5: pgborisov (3992 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: KIRis65 (14276 in chips)
pgborisov: posts small blind 80
KIRis65: posts big blind 160
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to GenoTHP [8c 5s 2c 8d Kd]
mieremet565: folds
Firewlker has timed out
Firewlker: folds
Firewlker is sitting out
carro1: calls 160
GenoTHP: calls 160
pgborisov: folds
KIRis65: checks
*** FIRST DRAW ***
KIRis65: discards 3 cards
carro1: discards 2 cards
GenoTHP: discards 2 cards [8c Kd]
Dealt to GenoTHP [5s 2c 8d] [4h 8h]
Firewlker has returned
KIRis65: checks
carro1: checks
GenoTHP: checks
*** SECOND DRAW ***
KIRis65: discards 2 cards
carro1: discards 2 cards
GenoTHP: discards 1 card [8h]
Dealt to GenoTHP [5s 2c 8d 4h] [6c]
KIRis65: bets 320
carro1: calls 320
GenoTHP: raises 320 to 640
KIRis65: raises 320 to 960
carro1: calls 640
GenoTHP: calls 320
*** THIRD DRAW ***
KIRis65: stands pat
carro1: stands pat
GenoTHP: stands pat on [5s 2c 8d 4h 6c]
KIRis65: bets 320
carro1: raises 320 to 640
GenoTHP: calls 640
KIRis65: raises 320 to 960
carro1: calls 320
GenoTHP: ??


PokerStars Game #35319661531: Tournament #210670262, Freeroll 8-Game (Hold'em Limit) - Level XVIII (160/320) - 2009/11/13 19:23:07 ET
Table '210670262 733' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: mieremet565 (34868 in chips)
Seat 2: Firewlker (4378 in chips)
Seat 3: carro1 (5664 in chips)
Seat 4: GenoTHP (6862 in chips)
Seat 5: pgborisov (3672 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: KIRis65 (14196 in chips)
KIRis65: posts small blind 80
mieremet565: posts big blind 160
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GenoTHP [Qh Qd]
Firewlker: folds
carro1: calls 160
GenoTHP: raises 160 to 320
pgborisov: folds
KIRis65: folds
mieremet565: calls 160
carro1: calls 160
*** FLOP *** [8d 7d Ks]
mieremet565: bets 160
carro1: calls 160
GenoTHP: raises 160 to 320
mieremet565: calls 160
carro1: calls 160
*** TURN *** [8d 7d Ks] [Kd]
mieremet565: checks
carro1: checks
GenoTHP: bets 320
mieremet565: calls 320
carro1: calls 320
*** RIVER *** [8d 7d Ks Kd] [7s]
mieremet565: checks
carro1: bets 320
GenoTHP: ??

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Hand 1 makes my head hurt.

1. Raise or fold coming in. Limping sucks.
2. Bet on the first draw. You have a good one card draw, plus position.
3. Are you even going to consider breaking an 8-6 with two hands pat before you? HU, we're never breaking here, but I'd be really nervous about calling a bet in two places here.
4. An 8-6 is definitely beat on the river. Fold.

Hand 2 I think you have to call for one bet and then feel like an idiot when he rolls over a K or 7.

[crack]

Hand 1: I prefer raising the button after a limper. The limper will have a load of shit I'm guessing. It's not that big a deal to just limp along with the 3 card 8 imo but you have the best position (The button really really counts in this game) so I like to put pressure on the limpers.

Bet on the 1st draw. They drew 3 and 2 and then checked and you improved to a 1 card draw.

It's a bit more difficult in a freeroll after the 2nd draw because If this was by anybody half decent 86 will never be any good in this spot and you would have to either call and break for the 7 which is probably a 3 or more likely a 2 outer or you would just have to fold. Even if you catch the miracle 7 it might not be any good. You might be best just mucking.

Fold the river to the double bet.

In a freeroll its a lot tougher because they may be showing up with 9's and shit.

Hand 2: I see no real reason in raising the flop unless you're going to take a free card because you are probably getting two callers and a bloated pot with an over card and very draw heavy board. If any card should scare you it should be the Kd and you still bet.

I guess on the turn if you get check raised you can safely lay it down but if you check behind it will only cost you one bet anyway to go to showdown and you have added benefits.

I think on the river you should just fold. Maybe because it's a freeroll I would talk myself very easily into calling that.

[HalfSugar]

Hand 1 makes my head hurt.

1. Raise or fold coming in. Limping sucks.
2. Bet on the first draw. You have a good one card draw, plus position.
3. Are you even going to consider breaking an 8-6 with two hands pat before you? HU, we're never breaking here, but I'd be really nervous about calling a bet in two places here.
4. An 8-6 is definitely beat on the river. Fold.

Hand 1: I prefer raising the button after a limper. The limper will have a load of shit I'm guessing. It's not that big a deal to just limp along with the 3 card 8 imo but you have the best position (The button really really counts in this game) so I like to put pressure on the limpers.

Bet on the 1st draw. They drew 3 and 2 and then checked and you improved to a 1 card draw.

It's a bit more difficult in a freeroll after the 2nd draw because If this was by anybody half decent 86 will never be any good in this spot and you would have to either call and break for the 7 which is probably a 3 or more likely a 2 outer or you would just have to fold. Even if you catch the miracle 7 it might not be any good. You might be best just mucking.

Fold the river to the double bet.

In a freeroll its a lot tougher because they may be showing up with 9's and shit.

The freeroll element is definitely valid in an 8-game and no more so than in the 2-7 round I've found. Granted I don't play the game great but I would say I have a bigger edge over the average micro stakes/freeroll donk than in any of the other games. Because of that, I'd very rarely break an 8-6 because of the terrible crap some people show up with on the river.

Saying that, my two biggest problems with the game are how passive I am in the first two betting rounds. I really should bet after the first draw but I tend to check/call hoping to get the cheapest possible second draw if I have improved to a one card draw. That's probably bad play, especially in position and I think playing freerolls is not teaching me much because there are often so many callers.

Anyway, on the river I was 95% sure I was beat but I made the grudging call anyway and was shown 9-7 and 8-7.

Hand 2 I think you have to call for one bet and then feel like an idiot when he rolls over a K or 7.

Hand 2: I see no real reason in raising the flop unless you're going to take a free card because you are probably getting two callers and a bloated pot with an over card and very draw heavy board. If any card should scare you it should be the Kd and you still bet.

I guess on the turn if you get check raised you can safely lay it down but if you check behind it will only cost you one bet anyway to go to showdown and you have added benefits.

I think on the river you should just fold. Maybe because it's a freeroll I would talk myself very easily into calling that.

Being a dumbass, I look at the Kd as a good card to come because I makes a King way less likely and if I bet and get raised, I'll just release here. A free card would have been much better I think now but I didn't think that through enough before firing and I guess I was trying to play an AK line by c-betting the flop and turn. Hmm.

The river was a whore of a card and after tanking I made the crying call and was shown J-7. At least I figured right that he had no King

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

I didn't realize it was a freeroll when I first posted. That being the case, never fold the 8-6.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

I dont understand raising QQ on the flop... i think that leads to your troubles partially


as for the razz hand i dont know much and ill attempt it more later but preflop youd wanna muck or raies (id fold im tight as hell tho) and calling the 2 bets on the riv? eh.

[crack]

Triple Draw Deldar :thup:

[miaowmiaowchowface]

ups, what i said still appliez tho!

[HalfSugar]

HU for rolls?

[crack]

Deldar. 2588 isn't that bad of a hand on the button with a limper. That said, in any normal game with proper players, people won't be open limping, so you will probably be forced to fold this anyway.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

would you ever open any 3 card lows from the CO or Hijack? or only the nutty ones?

[crack]

Probably only 3 card 8's and better from CO. You should always have a 2 in your hand as well. The button is a different story.

You should read the Negreanu chapter on triple draw in SS2. I think I saw it on doylesroom or something.

[golddog]

I have a question about the Triple Draw hand. As will become obvious shortly, I've neveer played a hand of this.

Are the discards ordered left from the button? In other words, does KIR discard, then carro, then you?

If so, what about tossing an 8, betting, then standing pat on the second draw and betting again (i.e., representing that you had a good one-card draw and made it)?

I suppose if you're called or played back at after the second draw, you can discard the K and see what happens. But I'm wondering if this is the kind of game that the villians get away from enough when you bluff at it?

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Yes, discards go according to position. So having position in Draw is like twice as important as in other games since you get twice as many decisions to make.

But I'm wondering if this is the kind of game that the villians get away from enough when you bluff at it?

That's really too broad a question and too player-dependent to rule on here, but I will say that bluffing is a VERY big and complicated subject in draw.

[crack]

In this spot, your cards are not good enough. Ideally you want to have the lower cards and 2's paired, because most likely players will be drawing to 7's not 8's.

Plus, 1 card card 8 draw against players drawing 3 and 2 cards and then checking to you is a strong enough hand. I have NFI but I'd guess you are probably a favourite in that spot to make the 8 and be good with two draws to come. That really is a big guess on my part though.

It's a complicated subject, but I'd say this is a spot where you don't need to, regardless of the players.