Inspired Play or Moron Aggression?

[lwestatbus]

My 6th or 7th hand at a $2/4 FL ring game no Stars last night. I was in the SB with QJ offsuit with two limpers ahead of me. I called and the big blind checked. Flop is J73 rainbow--not too shabby to flop top pair/good kicker. I lead out but BB raised and other two players folded and betting is back to me.

I had no notes on this player. He was involved in a big pot when I joined the table but had been quiet since and I hadn't been able to see his hole cards on that one hand. He saw the flop for free and could have had anything from top pair with any kicker to two pair or even a flopped set. I was going to call him down at a minimum so I called his flop raise.

Turn is a 4 with four suits on the board. I check and he checks!!

River pairs sevens on the board. I put him on top pair with a kicker he was worried about given his turn check and my call of his flop raise and I also thought that the paired sevens were going to insulate me if he had J3. I was basically worrying about AJ or KJ and just didn't think about him having a seven. I bet and he raises. I called and villain shows A7.

Villain had raised the flop with second pair top kicker against a bet on a jack-high flop. I've seen this play discussed (I think in Mason, Miller, & Malmuth's Small Stakes Hold'em) as a way to buy a free card on the turn for half price but I've never seen this play actually used.

Remember, this was fixed limit.

[crack]

It depends. A moron can make a move that is great and he won't even realise it and was probably doing it for a completely different reason.

I'd guess seeing as it was only 2/4 you won't get players making that man great plays. That said, I dunno how great this play actually is. Personally I am not a great lover of it seeing as the SB almost always has a J in this spot if he leads out on a rainbow board v multiple players and isn't going anywhere.

[Northern Hillbilly]

IMHO you played it fine. One could argue a fold to his river raise. Then I guess one could argue for a call on the river . You were getting what 7-1 on your money ? I think the 7 would of scared me off on the river though. Maybe a re re raise on flop but being limit poker I doubt he would of folded it

[miaowmiaowchowface]

Don't like river bet, not sure what you're trying to get a call out of... after he raises it has to be 100% fold, nto that i really know how to play this game

[Ensano]

FL i like the c/c on river save yourself the hassle of having to call a raise...

[Phil14312]

Couple things here.

When he raises the flop and checks the turn he doesn't have a Jack, period. With that said, even though you thought and AJ or KJ type hand was a big part of his range (really though?) you still decided to bet. What's wrong with that logic? Remember when we bet it's for 1 of 2 reasons (barring some really weird higher level stuff where you can get both value and bluff): A) for value or B) for a bluff. Since you put him on bigger jacks your bet accomplishes neither. With that said, I don't think he ever has a Jack.

He has a seven some decent % of the time and some weird gutshots like 89 or 9T and maybe some dumb ace high type hands as well. Against that range the river is an easy check/call. Remember why are you betting? Don't bet because you have the best hand because no worse hands can really call you. So check/call because he has some busted straight draws and sevens, but the pot is big enough to pick off his bluffs.

I'm also raising this preflop against players that limp here unless they are the exceptionally tight limper (15/10 type) because our hand plays well in small pots and big, it's likely the best hand equity wise, and getting the BB out and putting dead money into the pot is a very big win.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

JQ is minraise oop 4way in limit? is this where the lines drawn or does JT T9 play... i imagine no

[lwestatbus]

Here is some follow-up information on this post and some replies to some responses along the way.

First, remember I was very new to this table and this player. I spent about an hour with him after this play and he turned out to be pretty tight but when he was in a hand he tended to be in raising. Very few limps (if any) and he played any strength strongly.

Remember why are you betting? Don't bet because you have the best hand because no worse hands can really call you. So check/call because he has some busted straight draws and sevens, but the pot is big enough to pick off his bluffs.

Doooohhhhh!!! Yes, yes, yes. How could I forget this? But I did and it cost me an extra big bet. Ensano and miaowmiaow... expressed similar sentiments. In hindsight I might have been thinking that he'd call with a jack and a weaker kicker but I wasn't thinking that. Phil's point is really on target and I completely failed to consider this.

That said, I dunno how great this play actually is. Personally I am not a great lover of it seeing as the SB almost always has a J in this spot if he leads out on a rainbow board v multiple players and isn't going anywhere.

The play is pretty sophisticated and works like this. First, he drove off the two players who had position on both of us. He may have thought there was a slim chance of driving me off (remember I was new to him as well). He had second pair with Ace kicker so was probably going to call my flop bet and possibly the turn bet. Raising the flop cost him $4 while calling flop and turn costs $6. So spending an extra $2 brought him several benefits: 1) He gets to see how strongly I value my hand...If I reraise him he can decide what to do. 2) If I play as I did, call/check-the-turn he saves $2. 3) Again, if I call/check, he buys the chance to see two cards and so has roughly 5 outs x 2% each x 2 cards to come = approx. 20% chance of making 2 pr or trips by the river and he gets to see it all as one bet rather than as two decisions (flop and turn). My flop bet put $10 in the pot. His raise and an expectation of my call means that his $4 raise cost him 25% of a $16 pot. Maybe not the best play but my (dumb) river bet and then call made that $4 worth it.

In hindsight, and given his tight play after that, I'm going to rank this as a pretty sophisticated play. Or maybe he was juiced up on a mixture of tequila and coke and this is just the play that came into his head. It worked for him. I think I have a bottle of tequila around here somewhere.

[crack]

Yeah, I understand why he is doing it, I just am not sure if I totally love it. Add in the possibility of the SB leading with any pair and if we have an A kicker or an overcard to the top pair (Although ppl who usually limp will have Ax in their range, especially this small stakes) then I prolly like it more.

[Phil14312]

JQ is minraise oop 4way in limit? is this where the lines drawn or does JT T9 play... i imagine no

Run some stoves on loose limper's ranges and JQ plays well. JT less so though if it was suited I probably raise and not J9. The whole point is we invest 1 small bet, probably kick out the BB a reasonable amount of the time to get it HU, with the initiative against 2 loose/bad players, and we have a decent hand.

[REDMAN]

I say moron Agression. I am not sure why you are not concrened abot the 7 A7 is clearly in his range. If you bet what can he call with that you beat.

[lwestatbus]

Playing $1/2 Fixed Limit ring game on Stars last night. I'd only been at the table for 1 1/2 orbits when I get pocket queens in the cutoff. It folds to me and I raise. All fold except the big blind who it turns out had . Flop comes K-T-3 rainbow. Damn. Villain checks, I bet, and villain raises me. I get stubborn and decide I'm going to call it down. Normally this would have worked out except... Turn and River come ten-ten giving villain quad tens with an ace kicker (not that the kicker mattered).

But once again villain raises, this time a check raise, with an under pair. The flopped king was clearly in a blind-stealing raiser's range. I just don't understand his check raise on a King-high flop. Of course we'll never know if he'd have repeated villian's pattern in the OP if he missed the turn since he was off to the races. He's probably sharing this story on whatever forum he belongs to.

Later it turned out that the villain was pretty aggressive playing at least 1/3 of pots and raising with pretty loose holdings such as KJ offsuit, AT offsuit, etc.