small suited connectors

[Xamzax]

A few thoughts/questions

1. How often they have strong hands post flop
2. Expected value of leading before the flop
3. When to fold/chase
4. In relation to "severe" position play.

I've been wanting to add these hands to my arsenal for a LONG time, but been very cautious as the old tight player in me keeps telling me - yelling actually - to fold fold fold before the flop.

Any thoughts or ideas would be much appreciated!

[ViperX883]

IMHO, small suited connectors are really only good in late position when you aren't facing a raise, at leats in a no-limit game. Also, the more people you have involved in the pot the better with small suited connectors because it gives you greater pot odds/implied odds, meaning that when you do hit your straight/flush you will get paid off nicely. Do you guys agree with this, or do you have some other strategy?

[Cyberhwk]

I would, however, keep in mind that they don't call it the "Sucker Straight" for nothing.

[Sean_in_NJ]

Do you guys agree with this, or do you have some other strategy?

The only thing I'll do differently is occasionally 3-bet a suited connector preflop from LP in a limit game instead of folding to a raise. It's deceptive when it works, but you can't do it that often. You could end up chasing some players and lose some of your implied odds.

[tekkhead]

I would, however, keep in mind that they don't call it the "Sucker Straight" for nothing.

agreed, along with the sucker flush --- thats why i would rather play a 4-6 suited but would be cautious doing so...

[KINGJACK]

IMHO, small suited connectors are really only good in late position when you aren't facing a raise, at leats in a no-limit game. Also, the more people you have involved in the pot the better with small suited connectors because it gives you greater pot odds/implied odds, meaning that when you do hit your straight/flush you will get paid off nicely. Do you guys agree with this, or do you have some other strategy?

not totaly agree...

I think you can even limp under the gun with those if you have loose passive limit game condition.
In no limit the implied odds are soo big that you always have the odds to call it if you can read the tells effectively.

Of course its better to have multiple callers (5 is my cutoff) in limit games, but i prefer to have only one or 2 in no limit. It cut down the chances that somebody destroy your odds with a big raise when you flop the draw you wanted...

I also like to call somebody's raise with small suited conectors in No-limit if it cost less than 5-10% of my stack. If you dont hit, you fold, if you hit hard, it could be really difficult to read for your oponent.

Example: oponent AK
You: 6-7 suit
Flop A-6-6 or A-6-7

If you reraise there he could easily think you are on AQ.

could be very profitable.

In fact in tournaments, a big % of my gain come from suited connectors.
And the great thing with this is that its easy to fold if you dont hit hard.

Most of the unexperiment poker player lost big monney on hands like
9-9 10-10 or J-J with a A K or Q on the flop cause they felt in love with their pocket pair. Cant fall in love with 9-7 suit!!!! Not saying you should fold 9s 10s or js but its definately easier to play suited connectors IMO.

You hit hard 1 time out of 10, but usualy, it pay out.

[NickFlynn]

I've been wasting a lot of my limited brain power on small suited connectors lately and I'm just not that attracted to them. I'm considering 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 23s as the small suited connectors.

I call these hands "speculative hands" because they are hands you are going to drop very quickly if you don't flop to them. I figure there are two times to play these hands:
1) when you can sneak into a multiway pot for a small bet (good implied odds, low investment, etc...)
2) when you can isolate yourself against a single raiser (get yourself in position to "drop a Gus" on some poor bastard with a pocket pair or two high cards)

Anyway, what are you hoping for on the flop:
1) straight draw
2) flush draw

(Of course, you are really hoping for a straight flush, or a made flush or straight, or possibly one of those sweet combo flush/straight draws, but these aren't very likely outcomes.)

I'm just ignoring the other stuff you could get like two pair or a set, because you've got the same chances for those with any two unpaired cards. Also, any single pair you hit is very unlikely to be better than 2nd pair, so I'm going to ignore that too.

So, your really good outcomes are the two draws, which each are about 10% to flop. If you are in a nice passive multi-way pot, you'll probably get odds most of the way to your draw, and you'll hit it 30% of the time or so.

Here's where it breaks down for me - your flush draw sucks. Even if you hit it, your implied odds suck (because you aren't going to get paid off at the end) and you are vulnerable to the higher flush. Large multiway pots are where you are going to find people playing suited aces and kings, and while they aren't there every time, it happens often enough that I think the flush draw sucks for these hands. The straight draw is fine - because you still have a chance to hit the nuts. Because of this, I think the value difference between 76s and 76o is a lot smaller than the difference between QJs and QJo, for instance.

When I look at the whole universe of starting hands, my "tight" playlist includes about 20% of starting hands. By the time I loosen it up to include the hands I'll limp out of late position with, I'm still not down in the territory where I really want to play 76s - I'd rather be playing Axs, some one gappers like QT, J9 or even A9, A8.

Comments?

- Nick

[KINGJACK]

Anyway, what are you hoping for on the flop:
1) straight draw
2) flush draw

I would say no... if we are talking about no-limit game.
Lots of poeple will raise badly if they see a flush draw and they have hit the top.

My biggest payout comes on 2 pairs and trips...
dosent happen often, but when it does, its really hard for your opponent to see it.

I mean if 2 Qs are on the bord it more likely you have them than 2 6s oe 8s...

of course the straight draw is not bad but the odds can easily go down very fast.... any player who bets the pot breaks it.

[NickFlynn]

Anyway, what are you hoping for on the flop:
1) straight draw
2) flush draw

I would say no... if we are talking about no-limit game.
Lots of poeple will raise badly if they see a flush draw and they have hit the top.

My biggest payout comes on 2 pairs and trips...
dosent happen often, but when it does, its really hard for your opponent to see it.

I mean if 2 Qs are on the bord it more likely you have them than 2 6s oe 8s...

of course the straight draw is not bad but the odds can easily go down very fast.... any player who bets the pot breaks it.

First of all, I agree with you about the flush draw - that's another reason why I think the "suited" part of these hands isn't really much good.

But if your goal is to hit two pair or trips, you might as well play any junk hand, right? Especially if you are after that "stealth" factor. I mean, I know when I see low connecting cards on the board, I'm worried about two pair as much as the straight draw, because I know people play those cards.

So, if you are trying to hit the undetected two pair or trips, why not play any two cards? Again, I can't see why people are so fascinated with these hands. I honestly think I'd rather play some crap like Kx suited. You lose the straight possbility, but you get a flush draw you might actually want to play, plus if you flop two pair, you probably will have the top pair.

- Nick

[KINGJACK]

Anyway, what are you hoping for on the flop:
1) straight draw
2) flush draw

I would say no... if we are talking about no-limit game.
Lots of poeple will raise badly if they see a flush draw and they have hit the top.

My biggest payout comes on 2 pairs and trips...
dosent happen often, but when it does, its really hard for your opponent to see it.

I mean if 2 Qs are on the bord it more likely you have them than 2 6s oe 8s...

of course the straight draw is not bad but the odds can easily go down very fast.... any player who bets the pot breaks it.

First of all, I agree with you about the flush draw - that's another reason why I think the "suited" part of these hands isn't really much good.

But if your goal is to hit two pair or trips, you might as well play any junk hand, right? Especially if you are after that "stealth" factor. I mean, I know when I see low connecting cards on the board, I'm worried about two pair as much as the straight draw, because I know people play those cards.

So, if you are trying to hit the undetected two pair or trips, why not play any two cards? Again, I can't see why people are so fascinated with these hands. I honestly think I'd rather play some crap like Kx suited. You lose the straight possbility, but you get a flush draw you might actually want to play, plus if you flop two pair, you probably will have the top pair.

- Nick

True any junk is playable if it dosent cost much IMHO. However i dont do it, but i know some poeple hae succes whit it... I personaly never play under 5-6 suit. and under 10-j off.

But even if it's not the way you will win more hands, the flush and the straight possibilities add lots of value to your hand with manny callers.

Big raise or bet in reaction to 2 suited card on the flop happens more often 1on1. (dont ask me why, for me its the oposite. I raise more with more caller when i presume i have the best hand.)
I have to say i dont play very high buy-in tournament. 50$ at best on line and 100-200 in live game.

With more than 3-4 callers, players tend to slow it down a little bit and you may have your pot, bet and implied odds to call (or even raise) the flop.

Of course these hands should be played with jugement and not everytime you got them.

Any way, every poker hand should be played with jugement... sometime its time to raise or reraise 7-8 suit, some others, drop KK preflop. (did it only once... was wrong the guy had QQ) idiot!!! : )

in teresting discussion... any reaction?

[NickFlynn]

Well, I guess it comes down to a matter of taste. I'm not saying I'll never play them or anything like that - it's just that they are in a far lower playing group for me than they seem to be for most people. A lot of people seem to limp with them from middle position on as an automatic play. For me, they are much lower down the scale - I might call a half bet in the small blind or limp on the button with 4+ limpers, but that's really about it.

Oh, yeah, there is one other situation I do like them - limping heads up. Because of all the flop possibilities, they are an excellent hand to semi-bluff the flop with, especially against a passive opponent. Also, the flush has a lot better chance of holding up heads up.

I agree with you about the really low ones (32, 43, 54) - I just can't see playing those at all. I mean, the odds are that your next hand is probably going to be better than that junk.

- Nick

[Dave B]

67 against AK w/ A66 A77 profitable. 67 against AA w/ A66 A77....disaster

[tame_deuces]

I love suited connectors, as they expand on the arsenal of hands I am willing to see the flop with. I'm with the players who want to see the flop as cheaply as possible with them though, in order to get better implied odds with them, and I could also agree with the late positioning, as that will again tend to minimize any 'expenses'. As for sucker straights and flushes, well with straights the table will sometimes tell you if your straight is the best or not, and a low flush is a pretty decent hand, though I wont claim to cling to it by my life, it certainly is worthwhile playing in my book.

As also have been mentioned, they are easy to fold, which can also be a savior. As for the example above, if I had seen the flop cheaply, tossing down the hand is really no big deal. A pair on the board is not something I would toss much chips on if I hit trips with low suited connectors. Since I have to fear AA (in case some1 slowplayed it), A6 or A7 which people could limp in with, or on many low-stake tables, any 6 with a higher kicker ,) Ie. I guess what I'm saying is, that (in my book) chasing trips or two pairs with low suited connectors is kinda like doing it with 7-2s, what I'm looking for with my suited connectors is straights and flushes.

But again it depends on the table, on some tables suited connectors are simply unplayable, on other tables they can earn you a nice profit.

[KINGJACK]

Well, I guess it comes down to a matter of taste. I'm not saying I'll never play them or anything like that - it's just that they are in a far lower playing group for me than they seem to be for most people. A lot of people seem to limp with them from middle position on as an automatic play. For me, they are much lower down the scale - I might call a half bet in the small blind or limp on the button with 4+ limpers, but that's really about it.

Oh, yeah, there is one other situation I do like them - limping heads up. Because of all the flop possibilities, they are an excellent hand to semi-bluff the flop with, especially against a passive opponent. Also, the flush has a lot better chance of holding up heads up.

I agree with you about the really low ones (32, 43, 54) - I just can't see playing those at all. I mean, the odds are that your next hand is probably going to be better than that junk.

- Nick

True...

I dont play it as a no brainer neither. Early in a cheap SNGs, i'll limp with them every hand. But in rign games, I try to do it very carefully.

[KINGJACK]

As also have been mentioned, they are easy to fold, which can also be a savior. As for the example above, if I had seen the flop cheaply, tossing down the hand is really no big deal. A pair on the board is not something I would toss much chips on if I hit trips with low suited connectors. Since I have to fear AA (in case some1 slowplayed it), A6 or A7 which people could limp in with, or on many low-stake tables, any 6 with a higher kicker ,) Ie. I guess what I'm saying is, that (in my book) chasing trips or two pairs with low suited connectors is kinda like doing it with 7-2s, what I'm looking for with my suited connectors is straights and flushes.

But again it depends on the table, on some tables suited connectors are simply unplayable, on other tables they can earn you a nice profit.

i dont say I chasse 2 pairs or trips with them... of course its better to have the nut straight.

But the biggesy pay off with this is 2 pairs IMO. K-7-6 on the flop.
You re-rase K-Q, most of the time he will think you are trying to bluff him.