Pot Odds?

[Mr. Sandbag]

I have been thinking lately about pot odds in tournaments. I see many people call bets with draws or subpar/mediocre hands because of the number of chips in the pot, and a lot of them even say something along the lines of "Pot odds!" or "I have to call."

The theory of pot odds is that if you are getting the correct odds, you should come out ahead in the long run. If you are getting 4 to 1 on your money and there is a 4 to 1 chance of hitting your hand on the river, then the call is correct because over the span of time, that move will be profitable.

I agree this works in cash games, but I do not see how this is a practical way of thinking in a tournament. It just doesn't make sense to call a bet with a 4 to 1 draw because of the number of chips in the pot if it leaves you short stacked. In a cash game, you can miss your draw, be left short stacked, and throw some more money on the table. You can play for hours on end to win back the money, and the pot odds will start to become profitable after awhile. In a tournament, if you miss your draw for a big chunk of your chips, there is no re-buy (unless it is a re-buy tournament). You are simply left with a short stack and are probably going to be walking away empty-handed.

What do you think?

(Also, I am writing from the standpoint that the call will leave you short stacked. I understand that if you have built up a stack and a call won't affect you too much, it could be a profitable call.)

[jimmer]

(I've moved your post to a more appropriate sub heading)

I think it would really benefit you to read "Harrington on Hold'em Volume 2". He talks in depth about pot odds and the right time to fold or shove depending on the amount of chips you have left.

I could talk about this for hours, but VERY basically, he firstly helps you identify your 'M'. He does this by working out the total of the SB + BB + antes. (This equals 1 M). Then divide your total stack by the M (to work our how many M's you have). For example, if you have 2700 chips and the SB is 100 and BB 200, then you have an M of 9.

He then discusses how you play your cards in relation to your M. For example, anything less than an M of 5, he pretty much suggests pushing all-in or folding. However, this also depends on many factors (like who else has already opened the pot etc).

The book is a great read. I just hope my summary hasn't insulted Harrington.

[HalfSugar]

They are as relevant in tournaments as cash games simply because you cannot always wait until you have the nuts so you may as well base your big marginal decisions on pot odds.

[golddog]

There is something to the notion of risk of ruin in a tournament versus a cash game, though. Even if you make odds-on play, it's not going to work out some percentage of the time.

So there might be times when the pot odds dictate a call, but the risk of ruin dictates a fold; maybe around bubble play, especially if you're short-stacked. You might be getting odds on the chips, but not on the real money.

Say you'd be in a race, but folding ensures you cash for $1000. Then, your real-money odds are 100%*$1000 vs 50%*(amount you win when you win this pot).

If that amount isn't at least $2000, then your better play is to fold.

Of course, that's quite tough to calculate; how can you know "how much you would win if you win this pot"? Maybe it's the start of a big rush, maybe it knocks out the other big stack at the table and puts you in a dominating position to go deep, etc, etc.