PS Extended Registration Format

[lwestatbus]

PS seems to have recently introduced an extended registration format for some tournys where a player can register for a tournament up to an hour after the start time. I found this when I was checking out the 9:00 PM (EST) $4.40 FL tourny I occassionally play and saw: 1) that it had been changed to a $1,000 guarantee and, 2) that only about 90 players had registered just three minutes prior to start. My first thought was what a value, at least $500 extra in the prize pool. But I then noticed the extended registration format in the little scrolling details box in the tourny lobby. (This tourny typically had 400+ registrants.)

It seems that there should be some implications for this new extended late registration format but I'm not sober enough to figure them all out. (My vision is impaired causing all of the images on the forum to shift to the right side of the page.) But there should be some consequences to this new format and was wondering what thoughts others may have.

1. What are the implications for "normal" registrants who play but can have late registrants come in?

2. What are the advantages/disadvantages to coming into one of these tournys late?

The only tourny where I've seen this format (the only one I looked at) was a no-rebuy tourny.

An obvious consequence is that the prize pool will change as more players are added. A guaranteed tourny may look pretty attractive when you buy in but less so as more players are added.

[Jernej Zorec]

one thing is for sure, trhe prizepools pretty much doubled when they introduced it
and i think that owns

as for buying in late or early i dont really know
except that if u buy in late u will have less bb's to start with
sometimes i reg just before thelate reg ends, but not on purpose, its just
when i open up ps i join mtts i want to play and if its late reg its late reg

[lwestatbus]

I got burned by one of these recently. PS has two $2.20 sats to the Sun $1/4 million, a 36-player turbo (5 minute levels--6 players win buy-in) SnG and a once-an-hour non-turbo (10 min levels--1/6 of registrants win buy-in) unlimited player format. I prefer the latter but they can take too long w/ typically 80-120 players but I'll get in one if I catch it with low registrations.

Got into one at 10:00 PM the other night with 38 or so players. But within 20 minutes the player count had balooned up to 90 and I was in it for two hours before finally finishing with a buy-in. I'll probably be staying away from these.

[lwestatbus]

I was watching one of the tournys in the WPT Season 9 and either the whole circuit or that particular tournament had extended registration to the end of Day 3!!! And it turned out that a large number of top pros chose the last minute to buy in.

I'm just having a hard time figuring out this strategy. I don't know what the blinds were up to relative to starting stack sizes but it seems that the late registrants are buying in for much more of a crap shoot since the blinds (and maybe antes) are a significantly higher percentage of their stack size. These pros must just be either valuing their differential ability or be not willing to invest their time in the first three days.

In a variation I have seen at my local card room late registration is only allowed until the end of the first level (20 minutes). But the management actually places starting stacks at every empty seat and blinds these stacks off as play puts these seats in the blinds. This means that other players get a reprieve from the blinds during this period and some pots have free money in them. Once the level/rebuy period is over the remaining chips are removed from the table.

[HalfSugar]

Presumably by 'Day 3' you mean 'Day 1c'? There's no way registration would go behind Day 1.

[lwestatbus]

I'm pretty sure this was Day 3. Note that was the World Poker Tour, not the WSOP. Of course at my age I could have been confusing Day 3 with how many times I've changed my Depends that day.

[HalfSugar]

Find me proof Larry, that sounds like a crazy format if it is true. Also surely by day three the BB is > starting stack or getting close to it.

[lwestatbus]

Find me proof Larry, that sounds like a crazy format if it is true. Also surely by day three the BB is > starting stack or getting close to it.

It was the WPT Season 9 Belagio Cup IV. They announce the extended buy-in in the first few minutes of the broadcast and identify it as unusual and later, while they are still doing the pre-final table recap that WPT started in Season 9, they show a bunch of top pros arriving on Day 3. I don't know what the blinds and antes were then.

Info on the tournament is on the WPT Belagio IV Page. At the right side of the page toward the top is a link to a PDF document with the tournament format and it shows buy-ins for the first eight levels @90 minutes = 12 hours. That doesn't seem like three days. But just below that link is a Live Events Recap link (in red) and if you follow that link and then select Day 3 you will find:

In an unprecedented day in poker, registration for the Bellagio Cup was extended until the start of Level 2 on Day 3. Over 20 high profile players arrived in the last level of registration including Andy Bloch, Tom “Durrrr” Dwan, Daniel Negreanu, John Hennigan, Jimmy Fricke, Chris Ferguson, Lex Veldhuis and Kathy Liebert.

Of course, the king of late arrivals made sure to keep everyone waiting, not joining until the absolute last moment. With the Royal Flush Girls by his side, and escorted by a camera crew, Hellmuth entered the Fontana Lounge and was issued a chip stack in what very well could be the latest entrance in tournament poker history. Unfortunately for the poker brat, the late registration strategy did not work well as he was eliminated within an hour of sitting down.

For others late registration worked exactly as planned; rest for an extra two days, skip the first 10 or 11 levels, double up a few times and bam – just like that make it to the money.

Several players successfully accomplished this in Pam Brunson, Todd Brunson, and David “Bakes” Baker. A few more did even better, making it to Day 4 including Phil Ivey, Vadim Trincher, Jeffery Liscandro, and Takashi Ogura.

In the Day 2 portion of the recap they give the Day 3 seat assignments and indicate that Day 3 starts at Level 10 so "Level 2 on Day 3" should be Level 11 for the tourny with blinds of $1,000/$2,000 and antes of $300. According to the PDF file players got $40,000 in tourny chips so they're coming in with an M of 6.7 on a ten player table.

On the Day 3 update Matt Savage has several video interviews with top players on the late arrival. I didn't watch any of them.

[HalfSugar]

That is madness. Seems quite unfair too.

[jimmer]

That is madness. Seems quite unfair too.

Unfair? Why?

Three points;
1. If there was a rule that says you can buy in until a time when the bb equals the starting chip stack, surely there becomes a time when buying in is mathamatically the wrong option anyway?

2. How can it be unfair when everyone knows the rules?

3. I'm sure sites like pokerstars have stats on this, but I'm guessing the dynamics of the whole tourny change if rules like this apply.

It must bring in a slightly different poker player too. I love the game of poker but hate sitting in a cramped casino all weekend only to get knocked out before the money starts to pay. I'd happily arrive on a Sunday morning and play shit-or-bust for a few hours. Yeah, may be this is a crap tactic, but the tourney tourney gets a buy-in from a guy who would have usually just not bothered.

[lwestatbus]

Since this post has been relatively active (with no spammers yet) I've been thinking about it. I think that there are two considerations that affect the individual player's decision.

1. I think that Jimmer's point about avoiding the two days of risk and drudgery is right on target. If these players can use those two days more profitably (e.g., win the buy in cash games) then it certainly makes sense. And my estimate of the M at the last-minute buy in is not unreasonable if the player feels that their talent is ahead of the field.

I love the game of poker but hate sitting in a cramped casino all weekend only to get knocked out before the money starts to pay.

2. Harrington has a discussion on rebuys and add ons that basically says that the player needs to evaluate his/her skill relative to the rest of the field to evaluate the expected value of the option. If the player's EV is positive, based on their skill level, then they should take the option. Again, this comes back to the player's assessment of their own talents. The WPT web site didn't indicate how many non-celebrity players chose the late buy in but it was telling that there was a cluster of big name players that exercised the option.

[HalfSugar]

A bigger consideration is probably that most well known pros are degens who will throw money about on a whim with scant regard for it. Their EV buying in with a small number of BBs is no greater than you or I doing the same since we're just looking for a shoving spot which anyone can identify can them vs the field is probably even money.

I'll caveat that by saying that if they do manage to build a stack, their EV goes way up in a soft field but whether it goes up enough to justify the times they bust is the contentious part. In reality, if they can buy-in, bust/chip up within an hour and that determines the rest of their day/weekend, the degens will choose that approach because it's the easiest.

[lwestatbus]

That is true. Also, don't forget that being pros their buy ins are tax deductable in the U.S. They are really buying in for c. 72% of the actual buy-in amount. So, what the hell? Let's give it a shot.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

the later the better imo ^)^

[HalfSugar]

degens

the later the better imo ^)^