QQ hands-line check

[ErinJeff]

So I've been trying to vary my play with QQ recently in specific situations. I used to reraise push QQ against all but the tightest players (I don't think I ever get a 4-5bet fold, however), but recently I've started just calling these reraises, evaluating the flop and then going from there. The reason for slowing down a bit pf is that I rarely get called by hands worse than mine, and if overs or a scary board come, I have some wiggle room.

This has worked nicely in the last few time with QQ, but I'm not sure as a general strategy that it's sound. Could some of you comment on this approach?

PokerStars Game #18898175235: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/07/17 - 20:53:22 (ET)
Table 'Porzia II' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: ErinJeff ($51.65 in chips)
Seat 2: bartje oo ($76.30 in chips)
Seat 3: DPP1 ($22 in chips)
Seat 4: R@gs ($50 in chips)
Seat 5: fulhouse4me ($51.80 in chips)
Seat 6: SretiCentV ($50 in chips)
Seat 7: thedon10048 ($81 in chips)
Seat 8: nicolasb ($58.30 in chips)
Seat 9: OMGWTFJ/KLOL ($53.05 in chips)
ErinJeff: posts small blind $0.25
bartje oo: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ErinJeff [Qc Qs]
DPP1: folds
R@gs: folds
fulhouse4me has timed out
fulhouse4me: folds
fulhouse4me is sitting out
SretiCentV: folds
thedon10048: folds
fulhouse4me has returned
nicolasb: folds
OMGWTFJ/KLOL: raises $1.50 to $2
ErinJeff: raises $4 to $6
bartje oo: folds
DPP1 leaves the table
WON-A-WAR joins the table at seat #3
OMGWTFJ/KLOL: raises $6 to $12
ErinJeff: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [4s Ts 6d]
ErinJeff: checks
OMGWTFJ/KLOL: checks
*** TURN *** [4s Ts 6d] [5s]
ErinJeff: bets $39.65 and is all-in
OMGWTFJ/KLOL: calls $39.65

PokerStars Game #18919198222: Hold'em Pot Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/07/18 - 18:18:20 (ET)
Table 'Ornamenta V' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: jfirebird ($41.85 in chips)
Seat 2: Frost-Hunt ($44.15 in chips)
Seat 3: xxgeniusxx ($20.85 in chips)
Seat 4: Strikerman25 ($9.25 in chips)
Seat 5: ErinJeff ($53.40 in chips)
Seat 6: TTBS ($49.40 in chips)
Seat 7: hercules_08 ($27.95 in chips)
Seat 8: Eggpie ($49.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Wizzawig ($54.85 in chips)
Eggpie: posts small blind $0.25
Wizzawig: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ErinJeff [Qc Qs]
jfirebird: folds
jfirebird is sitting out
Frost-Hunt: raises $1.25 to $1.75
xxgeniusxx: folds
Strikerman25: folds
ErinJeff: raises $3.75 to $5.50
TTBS: folds
hercules_08: folds
Eggpie: folds
Wizzawig: folds
Frost-Hunt: raises $11.75 to $17.25
ErinJeff: calls $11.75
*** FLOP *** [9h 8c 5d]
Frost-Hunt: checks
ErinJeff: bets $33.50
jfirebird has returned
Frost-Hunt: calls $26.90 and is all-in

[mortaleclipse]

Hand 1 - I think leading the flop would of been alot better cause pushing all in on turn you arent getting called by AK which sometimes on flop, players may float it to a bet.

Hand 2 - It really looks like you are beat in this spot, unless he has JJ or TT I cant see how you are winning. This is all without reads but getting 4 betted preflop and he calls all in on a low flop smells like KK or AA.

Im no expert in full ring or cash as a matter of fact but just my 2 cents. QQ isnt a hand I would be slow rolling preflop cause I think it is not strong enough just to call OOP, as general rule of thumb. Against players who value top pair to much it may work out better. There is alot of players I have seen in the bigger MTT's who flat call in BB or SB to do a stop n go on low flops, im personally just not a fan of it.

[Ensano]

hand 1... villian is going to show AA... the check behind on the flop is to let you catch up...

hand 2... not many hands really call here that are behind... i say it's 50/50... he either shows TT/JJ of AA/KK....


90% of the time i 3bet with QQ.... 4-5 betting i don't think i ever do...

[miaowmiaowchowface]

do not call 4bets. 5bet/fold

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Brace yourself for supa and miaow calling me nit-zilla, but in my experience, at low limits, the 4th bet preflop is always AA/KK, rarely QQ/AK, and pretty much nothing else.

Yes, I'm a nit, probably bad at NL, but that is my experience everywhere live, and everywhere online below 1/2.

I don't necessarily agree that waiting for unders on the flop is the best idea when reraised. If he has JJ/AK, you should be happy to get it in preflop, and if he has AA/KK, all-under flops are no help to you.

Welcome to nit town. Population: DC.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

Brace yourself for supa and miaow calling me nit-zilla, but in my experience, at low limits, the 4th bet preflop is always AA/KK, rarely QQ/AK, and pretty much nothing else.

Yes, I'm a nit, probably bad at NL, but that is my experience everywhere live, and everywhere online below 1/2.

I don't necessarily agree that waiting for unders on the flop is the best idea when reraised. If he has JJ/AK, you should be happy to get it in preflop, and if he has AA/KK, all-under flops are no help to you.

Welcome to nit town. Population: DC.

I think your right about 4bets @ lower limits meaning the nutz, but I still can't fold QQ- it's QQ!
I don't think folding is terrible, but I do think calling is pretty bad

[odlozilik]

I agree with DC, 4 bet in full ring, both deep, against a solid player, I consider to fold even KK (unfortunately, I didn't often). If to call it, just for the set value.
Actually, this is only 100BB deep, that's push/fold.

[ErinJeff]

I think your right about 4bets @ lower limits meaning the nutz, but I still can't fold QQ- it's QQ!
I don't think folding is terrible, but I do think calling is pretty bad

I think this is partially my point. I can (rarely) fold QQ pf, and everytime I did in a multiway pot it was AAvAK or AAvKK at showdown. So if that's the case (I really can't fold this hand), why is calling so bad? I have no FE on a push, and if the flop is terrible or contains overcards I can check/fold postflop.

[ErinJeff]

Thank you for your thoughts. Like I said I'm not seeing this approach to pf/post play with QQ being used that often. More often than not a pretty tight range is apparent for VIllain. I think most of you would agree that it's AK, QQ+, maybe JJ+. I see little hesitation at least at NL25 and NL50 to get allin pf with AK (of course I never see when AK is folded pf). So against that range of JJ+, AK I'm 47:53. Against the tighter range of QQ+, AK it's 40:60.

The second issue is postflop "play." Do any of you check your AA/KK against a TAG postflop in an undercard 3/4bet pot? I looked over my hands and in recent years I haven't ever 3/4bet preflop and not cbet a flop with AA/KK ip or when checked to. So doesn't that polarize villain's range to AK, JJ, QQ (highly unlikely) or some other random pp. So postflop I'm 63:37. I definitely see the point that I lose value against hands that might call a bet on the flop, a la

you arent getting called by AK which sometimes on flop, players may float it to a bet.

but what if AK still calls? I think it boils down to, what does V think I have? Calling a 3/4bet pf usually says JJ,QQ or AK (for me), so postflop these same hands may still call a push because a) I played my (hero's) hand like it's not AA or KK b) this is a safe (undercard) flop for JJ and AK and V may think they are still best and again, it's unlikely V has QQ, so don't I have odds to push?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 62.552% 60.27% 02.28% 142411092 5398086.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 37.448% 35.16% 02.28% 83090688 5398086.00 { QQ-JJ, AKs, AKo }

[miaowmiaowchowface]

there's plenty of problems with calling the 4bet. For a start, it makes your hand face up to an attentive opponent.

then, if your OOP it's gonna cause you all sorts of problems. A bunch of the time the flop will come A K hi or with J or JT and then you have to play a guessing game OOP vs your opponent who's retarded and you won't be able to figure out wtf he has.

then if your IP, what. board comes overs and he bets- float once and give up? board comes unders and you shove- what do you beat? AK? rando hand that spazzed out?

summary: at this level do not call 4bets unless at least IP and more than 100BB deep.

[ErinJeff]

The results of both- V had AK and called.

PokerStars Game #18898175235: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/07/17 - 20:53:22 (ET)
Table 'Porzia II' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: ErinJeff ($51.65 in chips)
Seat 2: bartje oo ($76.30 in chips)
Seat 3: DPP1 ($22 in chips)
Seat 4: R@gs ($50 in chips)
Seat 5: fulhouse4me ($51.80 in chips)
Seat 6: SretiCentV ($50 in chips)
Seat 7: thedon10048 ($81 in chips)
Seat 8: nicolasb ($58.30 in chips)
Seat 9: OMGWTFJ/KLOL ($53.05 in chips)
ErinJeff: posts small blind $0.25
bartje oo: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ErinJeff [Qc Qs]
DPP1: folds
R@gs: folds
fulhouse4me has timed out
fulhouse4me: folds
fulhouse4me is sitting out
SretiCentV: folds
thedon10048: folds
fulhouse4me has returned
nicolasb: folds
OMGWTFJ/KLOL: raises $1.50 to $2
ErinJeff: raises $4 to $6
bartje oo: folds
DPP1 leaves the table
WON-A-WAR joins the table at seat #3
OMGWTFJ/KLOL: raises $6 to $12
ErinJeff: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [4s Ts 6d]
ErinJeff: checks
OMGWTFJ/KLOL: checks
*** TURN *** [4s Ts 6d] [5s]
ErinJeff: bets $39.65 and is all-in
OMGWTFJ/KLOL: calls $39.65
*** RIVER *** [4s Ts 6d 5s] [8c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ErinJeff: shows [Qc Qs] (a pair of Queens)
OMGWTFJ/KLOL: mucks hand
ErinJeff collected $100.80 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $103.80 | Rake $3
Board [4s Ts 6d 5s 8c]
Seat 1: ErinJeff (small blind) showed [Qc Qs] and won ($100.80) with a pair of Queens
Seat 2: bartje oo (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: DPP1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: R@gs folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: fulhouse4me folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: SretiCentV folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: thedon10048 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: nicolasb folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: OMGWTFJ/KLOL (button) mucked [As Kd]

PokerStars Game #18919198222: Hold'em Pot Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/07/18 - 18:18:20 (ET)
Table 'Ornamenta V' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: jfirebird ($41.85 in chips)
Seat 2: Frost-Hunt ($44.15 in chips)
Seat 3: xxgeniusxx ($20.85 in chips)
Seat 4: Strikerman25 ($9.25 in chips)
Seat 5: ErinJeff ($53.40 in chips)
Seat 6: TTBS ($49.40 in chips)
Seat 7: hercules_08 ($27.95 in chips)
Seat 8: Eggpie ($49.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Wizzawig ($54.85 in chips)
Eggpie: posts small blind $0.25
Wizzawig: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ErinJeff [Qc Qs]
jfirebird: folds
jfirebird is sitting out
Frost-Hunt: raises $1.25 to $1.75
xxgeniusxx: folds
Strikerman25: folds
ErinJeff: raises $3.75 to $5.50
TTBS: folds
hercules_08: folds
Eggpie: folds
Wizzawig: folds
Frost-Hunt: raises $11.75 to $17.25
ErinJeff: calls $11.75
*** FLOP *** [9h 8c 5d]
Frost-Hunt: checks
ErinJeff: bets $33.50
jfirebird has returned
Frost-Hunt: calls $26.90 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($6.60) returned to ErinJeff
*** TURN *** [9h 8c 5d] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [9h 8c 5d 2s] [5h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Frost-Hunt: shows [Ad Ks] (a pair of Fives)
ErinJeff: shows [Qc Qs] (two pair, Queens and Fives)
ErinJeff collected $86.05 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $89.05 | Rake $3
Board [9h 8c 5d 2s 5h]
Seat 1: jfirebird folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Frost-Hunt showed [Ad Ks] and lost with a pair of Fives
Seat 3: xxgeniusxx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Strikerman25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ErinJeff showed [Qc Qs] and won ($86.05) with two pair, Queens and Fives
Seat 6: TTBS folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: hercules_08 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Eggpie (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Wizzawig (big blind) folded before Flop

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Huh, so people have started 4-betting AK at the lower limits now. The games are getting tougher.