RULES?? PLEASE HELP! - Can U fold on a Check Bet?

[dldurda]

We play No-Limit Texas Hold'em Tournament every Wednesday. We all put $30 each in the pot and start with $100,000 in chips. We are all new but absolutely love the game. Here is a rule we couldn't figure out by watching TV and/or research.
>>Can someone Fold on a Check bet (when no bet is required)? I know this would be a mistake but is there a rule that covers this scenario? In addition, other than the actual rule how do you think we should play this especially before the river?

[HalfSugar]

There is no rule to say u can't but as u rightly point out, this is a mistake 99 times out of 100. I have been known to throw in on a check deliberately when I have perhaps checked my big blind all the way to the river with 2,4o or something similar bcos I couldn't beat the board and there was more than 1 player left......

[DDiehr]

Folding against a check is one of those situtations that very from "house" to "house". And since you're playing this game at your "house", your group of players can decide what ever they want the rule to be.

Since I've been playing, I've noticed fewer and fewer complaints about check-folding, I think this is because online sites have been allowing it. A couple of years ago if you did it in a cardroom, you were sure to get a lecture from an old-timer at the table.

Personally, I think a no check-fold rule should be in place. Very much like folding out of turn, it gives certain players an undeserved advantage (free info). Bob Ciaffone recently wrote an article in "Card Player" on this very topic.

[Dave B]

I do this sometime if I have 2 5 suited, or some other crap and am trying for a straight or flush draw. If it doesnt fall on the river, I dont want people to see my cards if everyone checks on the river.

If you have established yourself as a tight player and only playing strong hands, a weak show can introduce some doubt and make bluffing less effective.

[HalfSugar]

Personally, I think a no check-fold rule should be in place. Very much like folding out of turn, it gives certain players an undeserved advantage (free info). Bob Ciaffone recently wrote an article in "Card Player" on this very topic.

Explain this point. If it's ur turn, u r free to do woteva u want. Surely, laying down to a check gives away nothing? If by 'free info' u mean that people know u had rags then I'm not sure that would EVER affect a person's subsequent decision so I can't see it even remotely being an issue.

[DDiehr]

Here's an example of how check-folding gives a player an undeserved advantage. Imagine you've been playing five-handed through to the river. You're first to act and you check. Player 2 folds, Player 3 folds, and Player 4 folds, and now it's Player 5's turn to bet. If Players 2, 3, and 4 checked instead of folding, Player 5 probably wouldn't try to bluff through all four opponents, but since there's just you left, he could easily throw a bluff out there. He got information he shouldn't have gotten. When you check, you should be assured that the players after you will not give more information than they have to, to the players after them.

As far as the comments about "you can do anything you want when it's your turn." That's ridiculous, you can't check against a bet, you can't bet more than the limit, you can't make it 4 bets when no one else has bet, you can't do a lot of things in turn.

As far as the comments go about check-folding when you miss the river so as to not let anyone see your cards, you can always wait until the betting is over, if no bets the river and it comes to a showdown, then go ahead and throw your cards in the muck.

[HalfSugar]

Here's an example of how check-folding gives a player an undeserved advantage. Imagine you've been playing five-handed through to the river. You're first to act and you check. Player 2 folds, Player 3 folds, and Player 4 folds, and now it's Player 5's turn to bet. If Players 2, 3, and 4 checked instead of folding, Player 5 probably wouldn't try to bluff through all four opponents, but since there's just you left, he could easily throw a bluff out there. He got information he shouldn't have gotten. When you check, you should be assured that the players after you will not give more information than they have to, to the players after them.

Fair point I suppose but I'd consider that an occupational hazard personally and see very little wrong in it. We disagree clearly but then that's ok

As far as the comments about "you can do anything you want when it's your turn." That's ridiculous, you can't check against a bet, you can't bet more than the limit, you can't make it 4 bets when no one else has bet, you can't do a lot of things in turn.

That's a bit silly and I don't really appreciate it. I feel like ur fighting me for the sake of fighting. I'm pretty sure u know where I was coming from so don't treat me like a fool please as I haven't done to u. When I said 'anything u want' I of course meant within the rules. I'd have thought that was rather obvious, but hey.

[DDiehr]

Genocidal,

I by no means meant to treat you like a fool. And you're right, you should be able to do anything that's within the rules. What I'm saying is there should be a rule (and in many clubs there still is one) against check-folding. If the rules say check-folding is okay, then I have to accept it.

The reason I think it should be against the rules is because it seems to go against the spirit of poker. Poker is competitive, poker players are supposed to be competitive, they're not supposed to give up their hand when it costs them nothing to continue. As a poker player, I think you should be able to expect that all players will play as competitively as possible and not give breaks to certain other players at the table.