Started playing bigger limits...

[Jefecaminador]

Well, since I've finally found employment, and no longer have to depend on poker for spending money, I've decided to make a move and try and play higher limits. Namely 5/10 stud. So far its been a bit of a bumpy ride, I'm down about 200$ over ~1k hands. Most of that came at the begining while I was still afraid of the size of the bets and pots.

What I've noticed so far is that the play isnt that much better than at the lower limits I've been playing at. The only major difference is the starting requirements people have. There is a lot more folding preflop than what I'm used to. I'm playing pretty much straight up poker, except when I find myself against the occasional donk or super aggresive player.

Hopefully this will work out and I'll start showing positive results soon. Its also helping me to avoid tilt, since I realise I can't affoard to donk off a buy in or two like I could in lower limits.

I'll keep you guys posted.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

The major difference between $5/$10 Stud and the lower limits, as you said, is that the players start tightening up a lot, which often presents a problem a problem in terms of your return on the pots, because there simply isn't as much dead money out there. However, at this level you start opening up to some more sophisticated moves that simply weren't as effective at the lower levels.

Why? Because of who your money comes from. At the lower levels, most of the money comes from loose-weak players (that is, players who play too many bad hands badly, and go too far with them). While these opponents are always the surest source of money at any level, they start becoming fewer and fewer as you move up. However, you will start to see a number of tight-weak players who are afraid to give anything away (in general, these guys tend to play their good hands well, but their marginal hands badly, in part because they've moved up from a lower level when they didn't really have to play marginal situations that well to win). Against tight-weak players, you can employ brute force methods like lead bets, or sneaky methods like check-raising and multi-stage bluffs.

Remember, as your opponents get better, the value of deception increases (against bad opponents, you don't need to use as much deception, because they're not usually that good at ascertaining what you have). In Stud, this is especially is important, because much more information about people's hands is available when compared to Hold'em--because of this, when you play your hand differently than your opponent suspects, he is unsure of how to behave. Often, you can take a hand like a mid-to-high pair and use a little deception to throw an opponent off. You raise third street as you normally would, and then catch a brick on 4th street, which happens to be suited with your door card. Now, even though you may only have a 2-flush, you can always play as though you have a 4-flush and make your opponent a little worried if you catch a third card of that suit; you can often make a better player fold a better hand in this situation where a bad player would not.

Hope your new venture turns out for the best! Feel free to post some interesting hands and/or problems.

[Jefecaminador]

Yeah Diamond, I've realised theres a lot more potential plays you can make at the higher levels. Bluffing and semi-bluffing are powerful tools.

As for interesting hands, I think I'll post this one because I think I played it perfectly... Just giving myself a pat on the back.

PokerStars Game #6710737639: 7 Card Stud Limit ($5/$10) - 2006/10/21 - 01:34:26 (ET)
Table 'Jutta' 8-max
Seat 1: Riverman808 ($515 in chips)
Seat 2: Uncle Sooty ($196 in chips)
Seat 3: Dayplayer ($183.25 in chips)
Seat 4: texreb617 ($224 in chips)
Seat 5: 24ME14U ($142.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Lia744 ($306 in chips)
Seat 7: ElCaminador ($150 in chips)
Seat 8: stabrt ($248.50 in chips)
Riverman808: posts the ante $0.50
Uncle Sooty: posts the ante $0.50
Dayplayer: posts the ante $0.50
texreb617: posts the ante $0.50
24ME14U: posts the ante $0.50
Lia744: posts the ante $0.50
ElCaminador: posts the ante $0.50
stabrt: posts the ante $0.50
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to Riverman808 [3h]
Dealt to Uncle Sooty [Qd]
Dealt to Dayplayer [7s]
Dealt to texreb617 [Kh]
Dealt to 24ME14U [Ks]
Dealt to Lia744 [Qs]
Dealt to ElCaminador [Ah As Ac]
Dealt to stabrt [4d]
Riverman808: brings-in low $2
Uncle Sooty: folds
Dayplayer: folds
texreb617: folds
24ME14U: folds
Lia744: folds
ElCaminador: calls $2
stabrt: folds
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to Riverman808 [3h] [8c]
Dealt to ElCaminador [Ah As Ac] [Qc]
ElCaminador: checks
texreb617 is sitting out
Riverman808: checks
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to Riverman808 [3h 8c] [7d]
Dealt to ElCaminador [Ah As Ac Qc] [5h]
ElCaminador: checks
Riverman808: bets $10
ElCaminador: calls $10
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to Riverman808 [3h 8c 7d] [9d]
Dealt to ElCaminador [Ah As Ac Qc 5h] [9s]
ElCaminador: checks
Riverman808: bets $10
ElCaminador: raises $10 to $20
Riverman808: calls $10
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to ElCaminador [Ah As Ac Qc 5h 9s] [2h]
ElCaminador: bets $10
Riverman808: calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ElCaminador: shows [Ah As Ac Qc 5h 9s 2h] (three of a kind, Aces)
Riverman808: mucks hand
ElCaminador collected $85 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $88 | Rake $3
Seat 1: Riverman808 mucked [8d Ad 3h 8c 7d 9d Jc]
Seat 2: Uncle Sooty folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Dayplayer folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 4: texreb617 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: 24ME14U folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Lia744 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 7: ElCaminador showed [Ah As Ac Qc 5h 9s 2h] and won ($85) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 8: stabrt folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)

[crack]

I don't want to piss on your fire, but I don't think you played it that perfectly.

I would have raised on 5th. The reason being, you are going to get the same amount in there had you have raised on 6th. By check calling and check raising 6th, you give him the chance to take a free card, which will make you lose a BB.

You have a super strong hand, and he seems like he is going to take a stab at it with the bet, he ain't going to fold to a raise, which means it's just the same as your check raise on 6th without the risk losing a big bet.

[Jefecaminador]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. He was the bring in so I have to assume he doesnt have much of a hand, and with only me limping in the pot is really small to be check raising on 5th, I think too often he folds to a checkraise, so I want to give him a shot at making a stronger hand on 6th.

I mean, if you were the bringin and it was folded around to a guy with an ace showing and he just called, then checked twice to you, only to check raise, wouldn't you be folding most hands? You're talking about paying 3BB to win a potential 8.5BB pot. Unless I already had 2 pair or a decent draw, I'm folding.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

I agree with Jefecaminador. The 5th street bet could be a stab, and I think there's too great a risk of him folding to a check-raise (that does happen frequently, crack). By raising 6th, we give him far more attractive, but ultimately futile, pot odds, and he may believe we're raising with a hand that either doesn't beat him, or isn't much stronger than his.

The cost of giving a free card is minimal, and the chance of him raising back with a worse hand is even smaller, so I think raising 6th is preferable to raising 5th.

[crack]

Maybe the play is different on stars to crypto, because I have been playing decent levels of stud for over a month now and I have found that not many players are willing to take a stab with a BB in such a small pot. It seems to happen more so on 4th street, as it should do in fact.

I think the hand can be played both ways now I look at it, but if I was him, I would immediately be worried you are just limping with an A up.

I am not concerned about a free card, but more so the loss of a BB. The thing is, if he is going to fold to a check raise often, is he going to follow it up with another bet on 6th once you have checked to him. If he is taking a stab and you have called, then he must know he isn't going to get you to fold when you are now getting better pot odds. I know we should let him improve a bit more or chase, but I think personally I would rather check raise on 5th rather than 6th.

I will put this to my friend and see what he says, because I am really interested now what the preferred line is.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

I don't think there's a huge difference in raising 5th or 6th, because I think you're probably getting the same BB either way. I just like raising 6th a little better, since it gives him a little chance to hang himself. But I have no real problem playing it your way either, Craig.

[crack]

Yeah, I am pretty much the same, but I just keep thinking if it was me in the spot he was in, I would be very suspicous that the A limped on 3rd in the first place, then called a bb on 5th.

[crack]

Ok, so I spoke to my friend today and he agreed with me that the best play would be to check raise on 5th rather than 6th.

He said though that there is a very good reason for a raise on 6th rather than 5th, and that is if you know for a fact your opponent will take a stab at pots on 5th and has nothing.

He also said that even if he picked up a pair, he should call a check raise and then a bet on 6th and also there is a chance he has picked up two pair or even had a rolled hand in the first place, so jamming the pot on 5th would be more ideal than taking the risk of waiting till 6th.

And finally he wanted me to point out that you are pretty much giving your hand away by limping in lp with an A showing and that had he been the other guy, he would have just checked/folded or if he was taking a stab, it would have been on 4th.

Bearing in mind he plays high stakes stud, so perhaps all this advice is not applicable, but I think it makes sense and it's how I have been playing 5/10 and 10/20 and it seems to be working out.

What do you two think? Agree/Disagree?

[Jefecaminador]

He also said that even if he picked up a pair, he should call a check raise and then a bet on 6th and also there is a chance he has picked up two pair or even had a rolled hand in the first place, so jamming the pot on 5th would be more ideal than taking the risk of waiting till 6th.

And finally he wanted me to point out that you are pretty much giving your hand away by limping in lp with an A showing and that had he been the other guy, he would have just checked/folded or if he was taking a stab, it would have been on 4th.

I guess what my belief is that if the guy only has a pair, that he's folding to a check raise on 5th.

And I totally agree that limping with an ace showing more than likely gives away my hand strength. Again, thats why I don't like check raising on 5th, its too obvious, and unless I already had a strong hand, I would be folding if someone did this to me.

I can see your point though, if the guy actually has a hand, its prolly better to check/raise 5th. I'm just saying that since he was the bringin, I think its far more likely he has a weak hand and is betting to steal rather than for a value attempt.

[Jefecaminador]

Oh, another quick question. Lately I've seen some people call bets on 4th and 5th just to fold on 6th, even though 6th didnt visably help their opponent.

To me, that borders on rediculous. During a normal hand (ie one where there has been a bet every street) when do you ever fold on 6th, besides when your opponent draws a scare card?

I mean, there are obvious reasons to fold on 4th and 5th, and 7th if you were on a draw and missed. But 6th? By then you should have already made your decision if you were gonna see the hand to the end, barring some new developement.

[crack]

Nah, I also reckon if he has picked up a pair he will likely call down looking for two pair.

And yeah, folding on 6th is pretty stupid unless the guy has made an open pair or another scare card. The only other way i can think of to fold on 6th is if your opponent(s) has just hit your card (for example buried 6's and opp now hits a 6) but even then I would probably likely call after calling on 5, because if you have called 5, then you must think that if you hit two pair you are good as well.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

I would agree with you in all cases, Craig, except for this one--where our opponent was the bring-in instead of someone who had willingly come into the pot. If he was not the bring-in, I concur that a c/r on 5th is a better play. And against certain types of opponents, the c/r on 5th is probably better.

Moral of the story, the check-raise on 5th is probably the better play in most cases. It's just my own opinion that in this particular hand, a raise on 6th may be marginally better, but again, it's a very slight difference. The other thing is, many Stud players, even inexperienced ones, are much more weary of a 5th street raise, but feel somehow obligated to call down on 6th and 7th. But I wholeheartedly admit this is just my own observation and not rooted in mathematics in any way.

[crack]

Yeah I can see what you are saying, but I showed my friend the hand and he said it was a clear decision to raise on 5th, even though he was the bring in, and that makes a lot of sense too.

People may think such a debate as this seems a bit petty, but I think it's very important for us all what with it being limit poker and the importance of pushing the small edges is huge.

I am quite lucky I have access to this information and am happy to pass it on to the likes of you and jef.

On another note, you might wanna check my blog out, because it's pretty much going to be about stud for the forseeable future. I have put up a few questions regarding some scenarios. I have the answers, but if you fancy a go before I post them, you can and I will post up the answers and reasons later.