Staying in hands too long

[pokerTim]

I am looking for advice on when I should get out of hands. This past week I feel I stayed in hands that I had no business staying in because my first two cards were good.

for example: I had K Q not bad starting cards, I was one of about 8 people at the table. Four people folded. I think the flopp came 2 10 3 I stayed in the pot hoping to get at least top pair on the river and turn, needless to say it didn't happen.

At what point in this hand should I have folded my KQ?

[shorn7]

Unfortunately, the answer is it depends. First, was this limit holdem or no-limit? If it was NL, then you routinely should fold overcards on the flop if faced with a bet.

In limit HE, it comes mostly down to math. You have 6 outs on the turn so you are a 7-1 dog (roughly) to hit top pair. If there is more than 7x the bet you are facing in the pot, then you can profitably call (assuming you definitely think a K or Q gives you the best hand). If there is less than 7-1 in the pot, then you fold.

Hope this helps.

[pokerTim]

It was NL holdem. I will try and fold more hands next time. I sometimes get nice starting hands, then I bet or raise or whatever, then the flop comes and it does nothing for me, but I still stay in the hand hoping both the turn card and river card will somehow help me out.

I figure I need at least a decent pair after the flop, let's say for example my two hole cards are: K Q if the flop comes 2 3 7 then the flop has done me no good and it is time to fold and try my luck the next hand.

[Skribbles]

You don't always need to have the best hand to win the pot.

In you example of KQ and a flop of 762. If you raised this pre-flop and got called by someone, odds are this flop did not help them either. They are probably in the same boat you're in. 2 over cards and nothing else.

When you say that you are staying in too long, are you calling bets? Are your bets getting called?

Calling with just over cards is rarely a good play... unless you are setting your opponent up for a bluff later in the hand.

[pokerTim]

I both calling and getting called.

[golddog]

You need to provide more context if you're looking for specific advice. In general, I'd guess that you're playing too many hands and one or both of two things are happening:

1) people don't respect your bets since you're in all the time
2) you catch a little something and can't get away from the hand

In this particular example, you say that "about eight people at the table, and four folded". From this, I'll presume that you're in the cutoff position.

In that case, if it's folded to you, make a raise. Rememer, KQ off is not that strong, especially if you get a call/raise behind you--now you're OOP.

Doing this represents that you have a stronger hand than you do.

If you get any calls, hopefully they'll only come out of the blinds, and you'll have position (i.e., you won't get the button to cold-call a raise).

Doing so also sets up the post-flop bet that Skribbles mentions to try to take down a raggedy flop. Finally, you also might just pick up the blinds and antes pre-flop, which is a pretty good goal with KQo.

[jimmer]

I had K Q not bad starting cards, I was one of about 8 people at the table. Four people folded. I think the flopp came 2 10 3

Following on from the other points made, you also need to look at the amount of players left in the hand. In the example above, although you've missed the flop, it's still fallen pretty nicely. This is because there is three lower cards of three different suits, with no pairs. Therefore if you're planning to stay in the pot, this is probably the best flop for you.

Having said that, I wouldn't advise staying in the pot against three other players, as the chances are one of them has picked up something. If was the same circumstances except one other player, i would probably bet, (if the other guy checked). Having said that, if you're playing lots of pots, the other player would probably expect this move and adjust accordingly, by either raising you or folding.

There is alot more to this poker lark than meets the eye. You need to take every hand one step at a time. Most situations have a right or wrong answer, but these ALL depend on a million and one factors.

Keep working on your game, keep learning from you're mistakes, and most of all, keep asking the questions on this forum.

Good luck to you.