Step by Step, K-K Rush poker hand.

[Ciso_B]

Right, this was a hand that I found not typical, cos of several reasons, its Rush, im readless basically and we're not playin 20bbs or whatever like in klonk when u 3bet/get it in easily.
So, here it is :
First step of hand, utg opens and utg +1 3bets, I have position on both , I really think its hard to get much worse, except Q-Q to stack pf here, even AK has to fold if i 4bet right? Or not? Anyway, I opted to call.Thoughts so far? I ll wait for replies before i continue the hand.

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 922232
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: $167.05
UTG: $185.75
UTG+1: $220.50
UTG+2: $95.10
MP1: $146.20
Hero (MP2): $136.45
CO: $70.00
BTN: $164.65
SB: $182.15

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is MP2 with K K
UTG raises to $3, UTG+1 raises to $10.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $10.50, 3 folds, BB calls $9.50, UTG calls $7.50

[jimmer]

I didn't even know what rush poker was until you mentioned it, so i looked it up. Looks quite a good concept for those looking to get through a few hands per hour.

Which makes your decision even harder to understand.

Every player at the table is being dealt in the region of 200 hands per hour minimum right? (I just worked my calculation on approx 3 hands per minute for 60 minutes - even this is the lower end of the scale). So we can assume that players don't need to go looking for action and can simply wait until the cards come to them. Therefore pre-flop raising hands must be limited to a very few and UTG raising reserved for (as a rough guess) AA, KK, QQ and AK + also maybe JJ and AQ.

On top of that, someone else then calls this suggesting a tighter range than that of the UTG raiser.

You then flat call? I don't get it?

With the absence of any reads, i would re-raise this. With the knowledge there is no need to force the play unless you have a strong hand - this is even more of a reason to fear the other two and raise it up.

On top of this; calling against 1 player - yeah, maybe.
Against 2 players - not my thang

[Ciso_B]

Flop -
8 8 9
CHECK NMAKINGDOLLARS
CHECK SegafoX
BET gwesty86, $22
CALL HERO, $22
FOLD NMAKINGDOLLARS
FOLD SegafoX

[HalfSugar]

Why don't you tell us where you think you are at after the call? I think that will make this thread more interesting.

[Ciso_B]

Well, I dont see any point in raising flop , I kinda hate it when 3 other ppl play prefop.Didn't anticipate that, I call flop cos i have many ppl behind and can get away potentially if one of them raises,If i raise flop myself, I see myself either getting it in almost dead or vs combo Fd/sd or vs the 3bettor who could easily , and ALOT of the time imo, be sitting there wiht A-A. Ideally, everyone else folds and im hu and can make a decision later in the hand. Hes not bluffing here imo, so im kinda hoping he has the QQ or maybe JJ rather than the A-A.

[MrDarling]

Well, since rush FR is my bread and butter now a days maybe its time I'll try to contribute a little again.

First, fact that this is rush doesn't mean we shouldn't have reads.
We should have stats on most regs if we played it some + we can look at stack sizes and even locations (yeah, people from different countries do rate differently - in general)

...Therefore pre-flop raising hands must be limited to a very few and UTG raising reserved for (as a rough guess) AA, KK, QQ and AK + also maybe JJ and AQ.

If this was true then rush wouldn't have been the profitable adventure that it is. I played over 200k hands of rush and I think I came across one player that play this tight.
A standard tightish REG UTG range is 55+, ATs+, KQs.. A lof of regs open any pair and most suited A's as well as some % of SC.
That said, when UTG+1 3b, his range is "usually" polarized. Especially considering they are slightly deep. If +1 is decent, he's NOT 3b QQ/AK here or worse for value (unless he have reads/history with UTG)

So basically, PF is a crappy spot for us. w/o reads I think I don't mind to 4b/get it in a lot of the time simply because it will sux if we have to fold the best hand later on. People still stack off w/AK or even QQ some of the times. I think if I do decide to 4b I'll open shove as it looks weaker (It used to work wonders with AA early on rush days)

As played, when we flat here we're not trapping, we're pot controlling.
Flop I peel one and probably fold to most turn bets unless he bets really small. I don't expect to be bluffed often and I don't expect a thin value bet from JJ/QQ (which I doubt are in his range).

[Ciso_B]

Turn - 8 8 9 3

And ye, to furhter MrD's point, utg defo doesnt have that tight a range, im not a rush reg, but they defo dont need huge to open, but i did assign v tight range to the 3bettor from UTg +1.

BET gwesty86, $65
FOLD HERO
RETURN gwesty86, $65


Thoughts?

[odlozilik]

I don't like it at all. If you really think someone has AA, either fold pf or call for the set value. Like this, you gave away 25% of your stack not knowing at all, where you stood.
Btw, how would you play JJ, QQ being UTG+1 here? I think the most of players would still 3bet.

[Ciso_B]

Couple of points i need to make odzolik, i dont know when someone 3bets an utg open from utg +1 he has A-A. 2- If Its iron clad he will stack AK pf here and QQ/JJ too, then im just definitely 4betting and getting it in preflop. I dont know that, I have a great hand in position but am sceptical/cautious too. Obviously im not loving when we take the flop 4 way, but neway, flop checks to the 3 bettor, he leads, now, i have to say right away here, I dont think many people at all bluff in this spot.Im not saying we're not ahead,cos you know he might have Ts through Qs or for some reason have a 9.Calling seems self explanatory.Everyone else folds,now,turn bricks off and he bets a committal amount.That looks so strong.

He 3 bet an utg open from ep himself, he lead way on a co-ordinated board where he can assume someone if not multiple people have hands they like here. So, I had to justify stacking on turn. I thought there was a chance he had Q-Q. But I felt like QQ would be more apt to checking turn here, I mean, I must be strong here right? I look like strong here, I've called him with 2 people behind me on flop, and he still bets turn hard...

I really disagree with comments like "set mine" or fold pf if u think he has AA, cos guys, no limit holdem isnt 1 street poker, different variations and actions cause reactions etc.
I may have made incorrect fold, but being that it was rush and feel like ppl can fold so quickly , i dont think hes gonna be full of shit preflop, thats not to say i wasnt good, maybe he was overplaying T9s or TT, its unlikely, but possible.

After i made fold I thought it would be good one to post and get thoughts on. In real time when i saw his turn bet i was really thinking it was a fold, and was curious if im the only one who leans more toward folding then shoving.

[odlozilik]

If you feel good about how you played the hand, no problem then.

Do you think many players would check the turn with QQ? I am not sure about that. Also, he probably doesn't know you are a nit, so he might not feel you as strong as you are, maybe he puts you on any pocket pair or flush draw.

If you are sceptical/cautious, fold pf is fine, costs you nothing.

i dont know when someone 3bets an utg open from utg +1 he has A-A. 2- If Its iron clad he will stack AK pf here and QQ/JJ too, then im just definitely 4betting and getting it in preflop.

So, if one of these 2 statements is true, I don't see any point in calling PF. If 1. is true, you are behind on any but K board, if 2. is true, you play in multiway pot and can be easily outdrawn even if you have the best starting hand.

[Ciso_B]

I am fine with pf and flop, but aint sold on turn fold. I didnt word the point 1 you referred to,never mind.

Im not folding K-K pf here, and think that maybe you're takin the piss?Hard to detect on the internet. To say he puts my range on any pp or fd is kinda shocking too tbh. How can you think that ? Just yikes.

You're right he might bet turn QQ on turn for sure, that was the hand i thought that might play same that i beat, thats why im iffy on turn fold, altho in real time i felt like his most likely hand was aces.

I dont anticipate an extra guy coming along from the blinds, true, i thought it was possible the initial raiser would call but playing a disguised KK in position isnt the worst thing. There are many boards where im going to have best hand and get action.

I lost the pot , maybe i had best hand, and cost myself money, maybe I saved money where people go broke. This is what makes poker interesting too, the more natural way to play is to 4bet get it in, and if hes got A-A then gl to him. Nowt wrong with that, I just saw this particular situation as not so typical as to take that approach.

Thanks for the replies.

[odlozilik]

I didn't mean to be offensive in any way, sorry if it looked so.

To say he puts my range on any pp or fd is kinda shocking too tbh. How can you think that ? Just yikes.

OK, there are not so many possibilities. What could he put you on when you cold call his 3bet? You are supposed to have some PP or AK, AQ suited maybe. Considering you have called his flop c-bet, your range cuts to 88+. OK, flush draw is actually questionable because you would probably raise the flop with AK or AQ diamonds.

There are many boards where im going to have best hand and get action.

Isn't this board one of those? I can't imagine much better one, considering everyone has folded except pf 3-bettor.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

im happy to pitch this preflop assuming both opponents are reasonable, ur just gonna get in a shitload of trouble here with what looks like AK QQ+ (i think thats how u play holdem)