sure NL holdem is gambling, BUT

[Imajica1975]

BUT, it has to be the most educated form of gambling I have ever come across.

For example, I am a lousy gambler. All those church festivals, the blackjack tables, craps, lottery tickets, scratch offs, even "1 in 8 wins a free Sprite." I NEVER WIN.

BUT, at NL-Holdem, playing percentages, bluffing occasionally when it feels right, and going on instinct, I am able to generate a profit by "gambling."

I can't even say that about any other kind of poker besides no-limit. The NL aspect is the great equalizer to luck, which makes it the only card game I can think of where strategy is more important than luck. Even though we all go on our bad streaks, those pocket rockets eventually come around to everyone. They key difference with NL is the ability to extract more chips at any given time (and to lose them too, of course.)

Anyway, my point is, I always stay away from gambling because the odds always make it seem like flushing my money down the toilet would accomplish the same thing. But, NL Holdem just doesn't seem like "gambling" to me, even though I know that it is, or else there would be no "bad beats."

Maybe "Educated Gambling" would be more accurate, but I'm not sure about that one either because of all the idiots who play poker.

Thoughts?

[Dave B]

it IS NOT gambling, it is poker.

[Scott1101]

Oh come on people, it's gambling. You can sugarcoat it to make yourself feel better or to explain to Mom & Dad but it's still gambling.

When an incredibly intelligent person with years of experience plays perfect poker and still loses to a less skilled player(s) because of bad luck, then it's gambling.

No limit *might* reduce the luck factor but you're still wagering on a game that has a high degree of chance. That's gambling.

[1988 TR]

It is gambling in terms of any night I may win or lose.

It is not gambling in the sense of over the long run, I will not lose money.

Oh and Imajica1975 :

"I'll be your Huckleberry."

[flafishy]

To me, gambling is when you mindlessly, blindly bet money that you can beat the odds that are stacked against you -- at the slot machine, at the blackjack table, etc.

If you play poker correctly, you're using your powers of deduction to bet with the odds.

Same thing with working a racing form in thoroughbred racing, which a couple of my friends love to do. They work to make the odds work for them, as we do.

[fonzerelli_79]

it is gambling
i can see where your coming from and i agree to an extent - all casino games are in favour of the casino with odds so pokers better in that respect

but you cant get away from the fact its gambling. You bet money and you can either lose it or win more - thats gambling

[flafishy]

We're really arguing the fine line of semantics here.

But when I sit down at a poker table, one of the first things I try to learn is who are the gamblers and who are the players. To me, there's a difference.

[1988 TR]

We're really arguing the fine line of semantics here.

But when I sit down at a poker table, one of the first things I try to learn is who are the gamblers and who are the players. To me, there's a difference.

I agree.

Obviously, I guess it would fall into the category of gambling.

I think what a few of us are saying is, while there is an element of chance in the game, over the long haul we will win.

Make sense?

[fonzerelli_79]

We're really arguing the fine line of semantics here.

But when I sit down at a poker table, one of the first things I try to learn is who are the gamblers and who are the players. To me, there's a difference.

I agree.

Obviously, I guess it would fall into the category of gambling.

I think what a few of us are saying is, while there is an element of chance in the game, over the long haul we will win.

Make sense?

lol - yeah but everyone who plays poker thinks theyll win. Surely there is someone out there losing!!!!

[Scott1101]

We're really arguing the fine line of semantics here.

But when I sit down at a poker table, one of the first things I try to learn is who are the gamblers and who are the players. To me, there's a difference.

I agree.

Obviously, I guess it would fall into the category of gambling.

I think what a few of us are saying is, while there is an element of chance in the game, over the long haul we will win.

Make sense?

lol - yeah buy everyone who plays poker thinks theyll win. Surely there is someone out there losing!!!!

Bingo! Nice post, Fonz!! If we're "all going to win over the long haul" then who is going to lose?

[fonzerelli_79]

think the original poster had it right with the term 'Educated Gambling'.

Ive been winning semi-consitently for the last 2 weeks but today i caught some really bad beats and played badly to boot and lost (didnt bust out what i took to the table but i was still pissed off).

This is when you are reminded that its gambling and you can lose money
(eg fonz the other day when he woke up half drunk from the night before - bye bye money...bye bye!)

[gol4pro]

This is how you can always pick out the bad poker players at the table.

The bad ones are the ones who think they're gambling and are just there to have fun. The good players know that poker is not gambling.

NL Texas holdem is a game of skill, not luck. Yeah, 1/10 days a good player might lose, that happens. But that doesn't make it gambling.

It's about as much gambling as investing in the stock market.

[fonzerelli_79]

This is how you can always pick out the bad poker players at the table.

The bad ones are the ones who think they're gambling and are just there to have fun. The good players know that poker is not gambling.

NL Texas holdem is a game of skill, not luck. Yeah, 1/10 days a good player might lose, that happens. But that doesn't make it gambling.

It's about as much gambling as investing in the stock market.

very true...but someone who has worked in the financial services a few years you have to remind clients that investing in the stock market is a risk/gamble

think everyone is arguing but agreeing at the same time
poker is gambling - in the true sense of the word, you are taking a chance. If you improve your game and learn about the game then your chances of winning greatly improve but it is still gambling.

For example - say i had a weighted coin which would land heads 60% of the time and tails the rest. If you bet me a dollar on heads landing then you would win in the long run but could lose in the short run (and long run as well if your severely unlucky). And even though the odds are in your favour - it is still a gamble.

But poker is also a game of skill (it can be both you know;)) and losses can be calculated and prepared for by having a sufficient bankroll and weighing up the odds of calling/raising a bet. And in this respect it is a game of skill or to use the original posters term 'Educated gambling'

So i will now consider this matter closed!!!

Mavis - put the tea on love, i feel like celebrating (i bet she forgets to put sugar in again.....i wonder...is that gambling?)

[1988 TR]

We're really arguing the fine line of semantics here.

But when I sit down at a poker table, one of the first things I try to learn is who are the gamblers and who are the players. To me, there's a difference.

I agree.

Obviously, I guess it would fall into the category of gambling.

I think what a few of us are saying is, while there is an element of chance in the game, over the long haul we will win.

Make sense?

lol - yeah but everyone who plays poker thinks theyll win. Surely there is someone out there losing!!!!

Well, if you can't spot the sucker.....

I'm just talking for myself. It is not even a zero sum game as the casino takes a rake and ALWAYS wins.

I have won enough that it would be virtually impossible to give it back without taking the stakes up a LOT.

Then you have my buddy. He has lost $20k on internet poker. He has been in and out of GA. There are absolutely losers out there. They are the ones gambling in every sense of the word.

For me, it's a fun hobby.

[fonzerelli_79]

damn - 20k.

that hurts

one of my best friends lost about a thousand pounds in about 5 minutes on roulette a few weeks ago. No joke. His girlfriend went in for a shower or something. He put the casino roulette and did his usual double up until he wins (think he had made a few hundred pounds doing this previously). But its just kept coming back the same colour.

Then his girlfriend came back and he quickly shut it down and sat there acting all normal....after losing all that in a manner of minutes.

He then put a few hundred pounds on man utd, celtic and arsenal (i think it was them or chelsea) to win. We (celtic) only scored in the 84th minute so together with the roulette he was only 200 down.

Scary Scary stuff - he isnt a rich man or anything like that. Hes got a regular job like everyone else

Now thats gambling