Theory-ish preflop

[miaowmiaowchowface]

Hello all,

I have been playing around with my opening sizes. Thought I might try and have a discussion about a bit of it here.

Before I say anything, My usual open was 3xbb and 5xbb if a limper joined.

So heres scenario one:
You are BTN. Folded to you. Two solid, aggro shortstackers are in the blinds. They are aware you are good and open a wide range. Lets give them approx 20BB.

Isn't minraising more effective than 3BB because shortstackers mostly only have the push capability? (some flat in the BB, but lets assume not for practicality for now). Because implied odds do not apply here- this makes more sense to me.

So lets give the shortstackers a range. they push any ace, any pair, KQ, KJ (?) and thats roughly it. Maybe other stuff every now and then.They fold everything else cuz they're too stupid to play a flop .

So :. Is it profitable to minraise ATC? I'm not sure of the maths, but it seems to be so. thoughts?

[supafrey]

wait is this mtt or cash

[tame_deuces]

You're saying we should disregard flatcall, but I don't that is possible. Stop'n'go is the natural weapon of choice against minraise blindstealing in my book.

If we disregard flatcalling and assume they only fold or shove and we know their ranges, minraising is golden - but that's too many assumptions.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

You're saying we should disregard flatcall, but I don't that is possible. Stop'n'go is the natural weapon of choice against minraise blindstealing in my book.

If we disregard flatcalling and assume they only fold or shove and we know their ranges, minraising is golden - but that's too many assumptions.

this is cash.

Anyway, I think flatcalling isn't within most of their capabilities, and I've played many many hands with them. At the moment I just want to figure if it's profitable with ATC. If they flat we know they'll most of the time have junky hands and can minbet or 2xbb cbet and figure it out from there. we have position and again they can't really do much but c/rAI.

[mortaleclipse]

wait is this mtt or cash

I think Mia is a cash only player if not mistaken. But anyways question at hand, maybe 2.5x

[miaowmiaowchowface]

wait is this mtt or cash

I think Mia is a cash only player if not mistaken. But anyways question at hand, maybe 2.5x

I play donkaments every now and then but I find the final tables really irritating coz they go forever and its not that much money cuz im only playing like the 40$ buyin ones and it's like ughhhhhh just end also lol shortstacks

[mortaleclipse]

wait is this mtt or cash

I think Mia is a cash only player if not mistaken. But anyways question at hand, maybe 2.5x

I play donkaments every now and then but I find the final tables really irritating coz they go forever and its not that much money cuz im only playing like the 40$ buyin ones and it's like ughhhhhh just end also lol shortstacks

Yea time frames for the donkaments take times but making some huge scores is so sweet. Think 1st on some 40's should be atleast couple thousand so taking the V would be nice. I personally havent found nearly as much success playing cash as MTT's. On FTP im slightly winning on cash but MTT's im up thousands. For some reason on PS I can score anything really huge, not sure cause fields tougher or adapting to their blind structure.

[kingetje]

my standard open is 3.5BB these days, so $14 at 2/4. i think shortstackers are so bad that you cant count on them folding if you raise the minimum.. they'll call with any two

solid, aggro shortstackers

does not compute. but for the sake of argument, if they only shove or fold, 2.5xBB is probably useful.

[supafrey]

I notice that my preflop raises in cash keep getting larger, and that my MTT raises keep getting smaller, and it seems to be working lately.


err.. yeah.

I don't know how much more detailed we can really get on this subject without more specifics. Now that I've tightened up a tad I really don't concern myself with the shortstackers.

[mortaleclipse]

I notice that my preflop raises in cash keep getting larger, and that my MTT raises keep getting smaller, and it seems to be working lately.

After watching Cole South's new video on Card runners it kinda pertains to this. He advised watching limp callers and see how much they will call preflop. Example if he limp calls in 1/2, 7 dollars try next time making it 9 then 12, and so forth. If players are limp calling and playing horrible post flop it can make them bleed money.

[odlozilik]

Miaow, do you actually NEVER fold in this situation? Looks you don't even consider it, lol! Minraise doesn't make sense to me, they can both call with any 2 and make you committed if even just one of them calls the c-bet. Maybe you see them re-pushing very often because you raise always.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

before I say anything else- advantage of the minraise- It induces ultimate tilt!

Hold'em No Limit ($10/$20)
Seat 1: H ($2504.80 in chips)
Seat 2: V ($1970 in chips)
Seat 4: WizardOf ($530 in chips)
Seat 5: stevepinta ($3712 in chips)
Seat 6: bpari ($340 in chips)
H: posts small blind $10
V: posts big blind $20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to H [8d 7h]
WizardOf: folds
stevepinta: folds
bpari: folds
H: raises $20 to $40
V: calls $20
*** FLOP *** [6c Td 9h]
H: bets $20
V: raises $60 to $80
H: raises $220 to $300
V: raises $1630 to $1930 and is all-in
H: calls $1630
*** TURN *** [6c Td 9h] [2h]
*** RIVER *** [6c Td 9h 2h] [Ks]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
H: shows [8d 7h] (a straight, Six to Ten)
V: shows [Qd Jc] (a straight, Nine to King)
V collected $3938 from pot

[miaowmiaowchowface]

my standard open is 3.5BB these days, so $14 at 2/4. i think shortstackers are so bad that you cant count on them folding if you raise the minimum.. they'll call with any two

solid, aggro shortstackers

does not compute. but for the sake of argument, if they only shove or fold, 2.5xBB is probably useful.

Really? Maybe shortstackers on your site are teh suck but some of the ones on stars are decent. I think opens should be changed according to certain things now, and I'm trying to implement that.

If two shortstacks are in the blind with varying sizes for instance I think we can alter our raise size. If they have 23bb I think it would be better to raise to maybe 2.5bb to reduce their ability to see the flop profitably. Being OOP really sucks for them anyway though, and they aren't fully able to 3bet bluff. But what % of hands we can't call the shove with should we raise is what I want to determine

[miaowmiaowchowface]

I notice that my preflop raises in cash keep getting larger, and that my MTT raises keep getting smaller, and it seems to be working lately.


err.. yeah.

I don't know how much more detailed we can really get on this subject without more specifics. Now that I've tightened up a tad I really don't concern myself with the shortstackers.

I think in cash your raises shouldn't be getting bigger than about 3.3x or something unless theres really crap players but u have to keep it consistent otherwise the other players will catch on...

I do wanna check out other stuff under this topic but I think this is decent starting point :/

[miaowmiaowchowface]

I notice that my preflop raises in cash keep getting larger, and that my MTT raises keep getting smaller, and it seems to be working lately.

After watching Cole South's new video on Card runners it kinda pertains to this. He advised watching limp callers and see how much they will call preflop. Example if he limp calls in 1/2, 7 dollars try next time making it 9 then 12, and so forth. If players are limp calling and playing horrible post flop it can make them bleed money.

ppl will see this tho and its exploitable to an attentive opponent