Three Morons in One Hand--Which Was Biggest?

[lwestatbus]

$2/4 FL Ring game on Stars. Moron #1 (M1) was a certifiable moron I'd been at the table with for 45 minutes or so. Seeing 80% of flops with unbelievably idiotic play post-flop. Hyper aggression with any pair regardless of pre-flop action or board. Would bet 60% of flops or raise 30% if he wasn't first to act. He had never raised preflop in the time I'd seen him.

M1 is under the gun and raises for the first time.

M2 is myself in middle position with AQ offsuit. I would have raised this hand but M1's first ever raise caused me to step back and just call.

M3 is on the button and relatively new to the table. I had one old player note on him showing a loose call. M3 calls.

Flop comes Q-9-9 rainbow. I figured that I was in pretty good shape here given M1's previous play, though his first-ever preflop raise had me a little concerned. I decided that at an absolute minimum I was going to call this down.

M1 bets the flop, I call, and M3 raises, M1 reraises. I actually stopped to think. I can give no credence to M1 having a hand as his play to date had shown hyper aggression with moronically weak holdings before (and it turns out that I was right--see below). With only a weak read on M3 I actually started thinking he may have a big queen as well. I called and M3 capped.

Turn and river had M1 and M3 capping the pot both times with no threat developing on the board and I was calling down.

M1 showed A:spade: 2:spade: for absolutely no hand except Ace high and he never even developed a wheel draw. He was just betting to bet. M3 showed Q:club: 9:club: for a flopped full house. I dumped $30+ into a $90+ pot.

In retrospect I think that I should have reraised M1 preflop to isolate but folding should have been an option as well.

Once the flop came, what should I have done?

[HalfSugar]

Once the flop came, what should I have done?

While I appreciate what you have said about the other two donks, you must have realised that one of them was smuggling a 9 if they were raising at every single possible opportunity behind your call/each other? You really do not want to be calling/capping streets all the way on that board against two poor/loose players who have every chance of having you crushed.

I've played enough limit to understand that they could be jamming the pot with AQ/KQ/QJ etc but at some point, you have to reassess the hand. Capping all three streets here with AQ three ways up is ugly play. You cannot control the pot anything other than HU in a limit game against aggro players and sometimes you just have to accept that the width of their starting range is going to f*ck you up.

[Assistance]

if your going to fold on that flop because of the action then really you should not be even dealt cards.

Your flopping two pair with top kicker and your getting action, what more could you ask for?

yes it suxs that donkeys get rewarded but at the same time how dumb would you feel if it was the best hand at the showdown? and you had folded on the flop.

[miaowmiaowchowface]

ur all morons, move to no limit








seriously though i can't see how u got to the turn, let alone the river considering the action. but take this with a grain of salt- this really isn't my game at all.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Raise preflop, raise the flop, and then you can consider folding when it gets 4-bet back to you, because if the third player is still in and puts in a third bet on the flop, it's pretty certain he has a big hand.

[HalfSugar]

Your flopping two pair with top kicker and your getting action, what more could you ask for?

That fact that the flop was paired makes what you are saying nowhere near as black and white as you make out.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

Your flopping two pair with top kicker and your getting action, what more could you ask for?

That fact that the flop was paired makes what you are saying nowhere near as black and white as you make out.

Eh in limit sometimes it kinda is. This is a very good flop for AQ, because you're usually WA/WB.

[Assistance]

Your flopping two pair with top kicker and your getting action, what more could you ask for?

That fact that the flop was paired makes what you are saying nowhere near as black and white as you make out.

you are absolutely right about the pair
but I tend to play poker on the reads and going by the info that is given ...

M1 plays 80% of his hands and raises...and
M3 is on the button and relatively new to the table. I had one old player note on him showing a loose call. M3 calls.

That info there tells me I am well ahead of 1 or both

and if I fold on this flop vs a maniac and a call train, then I should probably give up playing poker cause I aint gonna sit around and wait for a miracle flopped flush or full house... yawn, that is kinda boring poker wouldn't you agree? this is limit after all.

Ironically enough with this hand, here is a Q..
What is the average wining hand at a showdown?

[HalfSugar]

Your flopping two pair with top kicker and your getting action, what more could you ask for?

That fact that the flop was paired makes what you are saying nowhere near as black and white as you make out.

you are absolutely right about the pair
but I tend to play poker on the reads and going by the info that is given ...

M1 plays 80% of his hands and raises...and
M3 is on the button and relatively new to the table. I had one old player note on him showing a loose call. M3 calls.

That info there tells me I am well ahead of 1 or both

With respect, the one note on M3 tells you almost nothing. I could watch you play for half an hour, make a few notes and know nothing about you based on that session. I agree that there is a very good chance we are ahead of one or both when the flop is dealt but given the rest of the action, that assessment has to change a lot as the hand progresses.

Once the flop came, what should I have done?

While I appreciate what you have said about the other two donks, you must have realised that one of them was smuggling a 9 if they were raising at every single possible opportunity behind your call/each other? You really do not want to be calling/capping streets all the way on that board against two poor/loose players who have every chance of having you crushed.

I've played enough limit to understand that they could be jamming the pot with AQ/KQ/QJ etc but at some point, you have to reassess the hand. Capping all three streets here with AQ three ways up is ugly play. You cannot control the pot anything other than HU in a limit game against aggro players and sometimes you just have to accept that the width of their starting range is going to f*ck you up.

By the way, in case people were reading this post as "you should have folded on the flop" then that is of course not what I was suggesting. My point about reassessing the hand really means stop capping the turn and river because by that point it is incredibly likely that your AQ is toast. I still stand by that and it's spewy to say "well this is limit and I have TPTK on the flop so I'm going all the way".

[Assistance]

when do you stop folding to loose aggressive players?

your going to lose hands but you flop the 4th best hand in a pot you know that is going to cap, why not go with it? that is the point of limit poker.

[UrAteUp]

when do you stop folding to loose aggressive players?

your going to lose hands but you flop the 4th best hand in a pot you know that is going to cap, why not go with it? that is the point of limit poker.

I still stand by that and it's spewy to say "well this is limit and I have TPTK on the flop so I'm going all the way".

Do you really want to be known as a spewtard? Geno's advice is very good advice for limit poker. You have to know more about other players starting hand requirements and how they play based on position. If you know player X will often raise with stupid hands then you can't take away the notion that he is playing hands like Q9, A9, 109. When pots are getting capped you might want to think really hard. My rule is if I have to ask myself if I have the best hand then chances are I don't. If I know I do then I want as many chips as possible in the pot.

[Assistance]

insulting, how nice of forum this turned out to be.

4th best hand on the flop and ur second guessing
brilliant poker strategy

Turn and river no threat developing on the board

so going by UrAteUp's other post about playing lower levels to work on "reads" mean lwestatbus shouldn't be playing that level, because you lost a hand with your bad read having the 4th best hand.

[HalfSugar]

insulting, how nice of forum this turned out to be.

Are you serious?

4th best hand on the flop

I hope you know this is wrong too.

[Assistance]

5th sorry, unless your playing with jokers, hmm Stars
AA, KK, QQ, 9x

Are you serious?

not at all, lifes to short

[HalfSugar]

Anyway, to sum up Larry, I think you played it pretty poorly - mostly for calling capped 4th and 5th streets but also for not raising the flop. Granted they capped the flop eventually anyway but I'm just not sure what you could have been beating by the time they clearly demonstrated a desire to cap the whole way.